You Can Learn Leadership

We talk with Karla Major from Sidekick about why stepping into leadership in property management can shake your confidence even when you are great at the job. We break down what real leaders do differently, how to communicate when it is hard, and how to build structure so the role does not burn you out. 

• the common promotion pathway in real estate and why it is not the only path 
• the gap between being a strong property manager and leading people well 
• why hybrid leadership roles create confusion and overload 
• balancing empathy with accountability in tough conversations 
• why avoiding communication makes problems fester 
• setting boundaries so leaders are not the firefighter for everything 
• how emotional support and interruptions reshape a leader’s week 
• why one-on-ones protect privacy and improve retention in the first 90 days 
• thoughts on mandated work from home rules and role-by-role flexibility 

This podcast is sponsored by Inspection Express. 

Inspection Express and Paperless Office is the leader in innovative, time saving property Inspection Software.

Property Management Software | Inspection Express & Paperless Office (ipropertyexpress.com)

This podcast is sponsored by Property Assist.

Business owners are building their rental portfolios faster than ever and Property Managers can’t possibly do it all!

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Leadership Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome to um another episode for the Art of Property Management with a lovely guest that most of you guys know. Uh and that is Carla Major from Sidekick joining us. Welcome, Carla. Lovely. Great to be here.

unknown 0:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Have you done a podcast with me before?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I don't know that I can maybe.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

It feels like maybe we should have, or we may have, but I don't think we have. I know. I must go through the archives and find out because I don't know whether we have or not, but I'm really excited to have you on because the topic today is talking about the leadership. So you guys have a really great eight-week leadership program. But I want to sort of dive into the leadership side of things. So if there are people listening that, you know, I guess what I what I think is that there's people out there that maybe have a little bit of need more self-belief that they would make a good leader. And I would like to sort of talk about that in case there's someone listening that goes, I sort of like the idea, but I feel uncomfortable labeling myself as a leader and going down that road. And I guess I want to touch on that a little bit of confidence with you. So let's get straight into it and let's start talking first of all about the the journey of leadership, in that if you can give us more thoughts in regards to how those positions are created. And I think what I see sometimes in businesses is that you've got people follow a bit of a what they think is a normal vertical plan in that you know, your reception, and then you go to leasing, and then you do inspections, and then property management, BDM, and you know, there's this vertical hierarchy of what people think we go through, and then only when you've maybe been a property manager and a senior, then you've got the right to go take more of a leadership position or more, you know, C-suite position. But what's your thoughts and what are you seeing happening inside the industry with regards to that? And do you think that that's you know the right way to do it, or is there other stuff going on that I'm not aware of?

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah, look, that is generally the way to do it, but that's generally the way that it happens. And I will clearly say there's not a right or a wrong way to end up in a leadership position. I think what always has to happen though is we've got to have the structure and the training to align with it. What I see the most that happens in our industry is as you say, we start in reception and then we go to leasing, then we're field officer, and then we're maintenance manager, and then suddenly we might be a property manager's assistant, and then someday the seat becomes vacant for a department head, and the net the person that's been there the longest is the one that's promoted up into being a leader, and there's a big difference between being an awesome property manager and being a leader. So that what actually happens is then we have leaders, department heads in the role that actually think that they still have to be a property manager and they have to be a leader, and there's a very grey area, and that's where all the confusion happens.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

It does. I do know what I don't think gets discussed enough is the that hybrid role in regards to the leadership, but still taking on, like you said, that role of it. Why does that happen? Is that something that business owners are

The Real Paths Into Leadership

SPEAKER_00 3:35

doing to justify it the position being an income generating role? Or how's that happening?

SPEAKER_01 3:43

I think it's more comfort, it's just being comfortable, comfortable with the staff that they know, and they think that that you've been great here in this position, let's push you up into the next one. But even as business owners, not all business owners are great leaders when it comes to people leading, and and they they haven't had the training themselves. And as we know, up until luckily, you know, recent years, and you know, we've seen the shift that property management is actually a real part of the business. And we've been taken out of the back room, and we've been brought into a room that has lights and and we're actually seen as an important part of the business that now, you know, business owners are actually starting to think, and this is why we have leadership accelerator, we need to actually give our leaders training. But it's great to keep our staff that we've got in there, the ones that we've nurtured all through the years, and we want to support their growth pathways, but we actually have to give them training to do it.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

So, do you think that leadership is something well that and and I guess the the cohorts that are coming through, do they all have a natural ability, like a natural leadership ability? Or like do you ever see anyone that just doesn't have it but wants to have it? Maybe not in your cohort, but just in general in industry?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Yeah, in general, there's a mix of everything. There's a mix of people that actually think they're going to be awesome leaders, and then they step into the reality of it and realize they're not going to be liked by everybody all the time, and they're not going to be the favourite person in the office anymore. So that's a bit of a struggle. We see we've got leaders that have been in leadership for a long time that realize that there's been a shift in the way leadership is happening these days, and they need to re-educate themselves and they need to learn some more. And they're the property managers that have just been promoted up into that role and have absolutely no idea what that role means. So they're they're left flailing a little bit with how do I do this leadership thing now? What is leadership? Does that mean I've got to sack people? Does that mean I've got to be the boss? You know, how tough do I have to be? We the biggest issue that we see is people not knowing how firm that they need to be, and then and not having the confidence to follow through with what they need to do with their team.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

It's a real balance. I um there's a topic for an event that I've got coming up, and it's called balancing empathy with accountability. And I think it's a real problem, you know, in the future, now and in the future, where we are tending to be very careful and very worried about having those conversations that might offend people, how we articulate them. But because we don't have those conversations, we also I think breeding some underperformance. And I think that it's a real balance, and it's great that there is some training to help people get a little bit more confident with balancing that. But it's a really very, very hard thing. And I I'm putting it down to a lot of, and it might be a little bit of a sensitive topic to talk about, but I'm putting it down to a lot of labeling diversity in terms of personalities, and you know, this person, you know, you know, might have this, so we have to treat that differently. It's very, very hard when you're dealing with people, whether it's colleagues or tenants or owners, it's very hard to go and to sort of understand, you know, the way each person's going to receive the message because you could say the same thing. I could say the same thing to my whole team, and there's going to be some people that are happy with it and some people that aren't. So, do you think that it's important to really customize the communication or sort of just have that communication and then leave people to receive it as they want?

The Hybrid Role Trap

SPEAKER_00 8:05

What I mean by that is like you just have one style, but then then it's like on the receive it.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah, it's like what you thought of that. Like, what yeah, what do you reckon? Look, I actually think the biggest issue we have in our industry is no communication. And I think you touched on that right at the beginning is people are in fear of communicating and stepping into those conversations of friction and those tough conversations, so they step away from it. So I think that is the biggest fear is that the biggest issue is the no communication. And then they dodge it, and then they think if I be an ostrich and put my head in the sand and not deal with those tough conversations, I'll just go away. And then we all know that they fester and they get worse. So I the the irony of this is that we're property managers, we're having conversations of conflict all the time. We get having those arrears conversations, we're having those tough conversations with our clients. But when we step into leadership, we we can't have those tough conversations with our team. So my theory is that we need to step in more to those tough conversations. And the more that we have those conversations, the easier they get. It's easier for our team to learn to come to us in difficult situations and have the tough conversations with us. And it and we're leading the way by showing them the way to have those tough conversations.

SPEAKER_00 9:36

It's interesting the way that you said that. Like we sort of have them with our owners or with our tenants, and we say, no, you can't do that. We're very comfortable doing that, aren't we? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

And we have to self-reflect a bit on that. Or is it, you know, it's a bit of the confidence when we're in the PM role, and then we lose the confidence a bit when we step into the leadership role because we're dealing with emotions and people that we know, and our previous best mate that we would sit next to in that role. So we have to learn to put on the the hat of the leader and not fall back into the comfortable space of the property manager and understand that we are going to have to take the lead and link with strength and be confident and also be able to go at times. Hey, I stuffed out. That was actually that was a poor decision for the team. Thought we'd give it a go, it didn't work. Let's actually move on. I take ownership, I don't know everything. We're we're learning this pathway together.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Yeah, absolutely. Now I know you know it's very cliche to say everybody's a leader in their own right. And and yes, I agree we we've all got that. But if we can just like be quite specific with leadership positions in real estate, so that would sort of in a traditional real estate look like head of department, a operational manager, a department manager. I'm just sort of just thinking of what the labels would be. Are there any others in that suite?

SPEAKER_01 11:09

Oh, now we can just throw a whole gamut of whatever you want to be called into there. So we you know when we look at you know, hybrid roles and we look at pods, portfolios, structures of businesses are all different these days. So there can be different levels of leadership in there. And especially, you know, with our multi-officers that I work with. I work with a lot of multi-officers as well, and they will have split leadership roles with leaders looking after a couple of officers and another department head looking after another couple of officers. So there are different roles, yes, there are, but and back to your original question, I don't think that everyone can step into leadership. I I think there I've seen people that have tried really hard, but at the end of the day, they just don't want to step into those tough conversations. They don't want to step into that tough role.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

I think it's been really oh, pardon my I as you know, my came off the airplane and my laptop's just come up with low battery. Let me just fix that up. It it's interesting. I think it's really important to be clear and in terms of the roles, but also

Tough Talks With Empathy

SPEAKER_00 12:15

to understand that the role can be quite customized for the leaders. Because I know, like with our operation manager, I can't remember what when she first started, but she I think she said, listen, I'm happy with owner, the owner sort of conflict and escalations, but she was preferring not to do stuff. And and so she was sort of like, but she she wants to learn, she wants to get better at the staff management, but at least I knew from the very start that okay, that's okay, and very clear in her role that you can handle this. Okay, it might have been the other way, I can't remember, but it was it was still a clear conversation with regards to I'm comfortable with with managing the team, but I'm not comfortable with owner escalations or tenant or vice versa. And so I think when we go into those roles or maybe start having the conversations, it would be really important to find out like what's expected of me as the leader in this position and what level do you want me to go to? Because I have seen a couple of people in the industry where they take on and take on more and more responsibility from the business owner, and I don't think that that clear conversation has been had at the start, and it's just assumed that they will do everything that the business owner sort of needs them to do, but without realizing what that entails, and so then I see them get too far down the rabbit hole of actually doing so much. These leaders, like these sort of you know, head of departments, for example, are getting so burnt out because they are getting a lot more thrown on them. And I think there's also people aren't recognizing that when your department grows, when your properties portfolio grows, when your team grows, the the leader in that position is also like like we we can't deny the fact that their workloads are increasing as well. And so, you know, do you do you adjust salaries based on headcount or on I I'm not sure what the rule is, but there's it just gets forgotten, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_01 14:32

And I think one of the biggest things I see in our industry is when somebody's promoted up into a leadership role, then they're expected to still do what they did before. So all of their property management portfolio plus do the leadership. And then there's no clear distinction on how much of my time am I meant to be spending on team, because we we all know that as the team grows, that's where your focus needs to be. Your team is your biggest asset in your business. So if we're promoting people into roles saying, look after the team, but then also have a perfect portfolio and still do everything as fabulous as you did before and do this just as great as well, it's not gonna work. We my recommendation is when you can get to the level of a department head, is they should not be managing their own portfolio. Now that's going to, you know, I'm probably gonna have a lot of people arguing with me on that one because with people believe that they still need to have their finger in the pot of property management and they still need to be, you know, on the front line doing it themselves to know what needs to be going on. I don't disagree, I don't agree with that at all. I believe that you need to be focused, have somebody that is focused 100% on your team, on the structure, on on the vision and bringing the team up to the level that they need to be, not falling back into the comfortable shoes of property management and doing what they've always done before, because then they'll forget about the leadership side of it.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah. And don't you reckon people underestimate the emotional, what's the word, the the emotional support that your team needs. And I know this has definitely been a topic in conversation a lot where and business owners, I don't think, appreciate that they probably see that as being a little bit fluffy, like the support for the team. But it actually is a true thing. I don't know if you've ever done any calculations with it, but I I would calculate if I was just to have a guess, I would say two hours per team member is what I think they need per week as emotional support. And that emotional support might be them calling up with some help on something, or maybe you catch up with them at lunch and that you know something's going on in their personal life, or maybe they're really struggling with whatever it is. And so if you then calculate, like in my calculation, and everyone will have a different one, if I say two hours a week per person, and I was going to say, okay, well, 50% of my time is going to be for like my team and their emotional support, that would actually suggest that I probably only have capacity to have 10 staff, 10 team underneath me in my role. So then I would go to myself, okay, well, if I've now got 20 in my team that I'm looking after, is that achievable in a full-day week? That to me would be full-time just emotional support if you had 20 people. And I know that that would, that number and calculation would potentially look different, just like how many properties can you manage? You know, same sort of scenario. That would look different in any office and different experience. But I think it really is important to to to go those extra layers to work out like how much time is allocated. And that that's true, that's true time. Like that's actually the way that's your role, like for our operations manager, that is her role to give that. And that can't be just discarded either. Like, do you sort of you know see that emotional support as being a big thing now and and more in the future?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

It definitely is a lot of the emotional support side of it, is what interrupts, I I guess, department head or or a business owner, because a lot of the people I work with are business owners as well. Leadership accelerating isn't just for department heads, it's for business owners as well who want to lead better and look after their team better. So I I think the I think what I'm seeing is that that emotional support, and as you mentioned earlier, I guess a bit of the fear of are we doing things right, are we going to say the wrong right things, the wrong things. So they tend to make themselves more available more often, and that loses any structure for themselves. So what I'm really strong about with our leaders is you have to have boundaries. So, first step when you step into leadership, know in the hell what you need to do in leadership. Have the business owner tell you this is what your role will entail, or as a business owner, have a think about it and let's structure what that leadership role is going to look like for you and how much of that time needs to be going to different areas. So, first of all, it's just clarity, and and then you can move on from there.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Yeah, I would imagine there'd be a lot of people needing support with that and what an ideal week looks like and what a clear role is. It's just, yeah, I don't know. I'm just I'm just feeling like a lot of people just have a it's just like such a broad, open, you know, role with and like and you like you said, the boundaries, I can just see how they are wide open in that. Absolutely. Um I'm glad I'm glad you're supporting them, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah, well, I think the the other thing is business leaders need to look after themselves as well, and they need to have boundaries and set clear, like set the clear boundaries and the guidelines for their team so that they don't have a an open door policy that their team can walk in every two minutes and they have to solve a problem for them, or that they are the firefighter for everything in their office, or they're the lifesaver, they're jumping in to save everybody every five seconds. Where as a leader,

Boundaries To Prevent Leader Burnout

SPEAKER_01 20:40

we're meant to be bringing our team up and making them shine to be the best that they can. And by jumping in and saving them all the time, we're not teaching them anything. So we need to be really clear on if you need support from me, this is the way we're set up to do that. And you know, be a lot more structured. We give them the one-on-ones, give them the time for the walk and talk, give them time for the powwow, give them time for the team meeting, let their voices be heard, but at the right time. So I think that's a really important part that our leaders find difficult in the beginning because it's a bit of a free-for-all, and they feel like they should have an open door policy for their team that I'm always here for you. But then what that does is makes our leaders burn out and makes them exhausted, and it doesn't help their team either.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

No, I'm gonna give you a little fun fact about me. Uh, my fun fact is that I have never in 20 years of business done one on ones. Never have. Never have, not interested. And my excuse or my uh validation to that is because I do make myself available when anyone needs me. I don't have a desk in the office, I sit with everyone and um probably don't have an Boundaries when it comes to you know to approachability, but it's fine, it's um it's all under control. But it's not something that I've ever done to be if I'm completely honest, and I only share it in case anyone else feels a little bit the same. Like my brain says you should do that, but then my heart goes, Well, I haven't needed to. I am available, I'm approachable, they can grab me whenever they need me, and it hasn't been something that I've needed to do. And I do sometimes have a little bit of a thought that we have meetings for the sake of meetings, and I just don't like doing a meeting for the sake of a meeting. I'd rather be more accountable. What's your what's your opinion and what do you sort of I guess educate on in regards to the right amount of staff meetings and one-on-ones and any other type that people do?

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah, well, look, what you're saying is valid, and that is generally most of the leaders that come into leadership accelerators start off saying we we don't do consistent team meetings, we don't do consistent one-on-one meetings, but by the time they leave, they're doing them and they're they're reaping the benefits from them. The reason I recommend one-on-ones is because not every conversation you want to have with somebody needs to be in an open room. And if we've got the structured time booked in for a one-on-one, if there's something that a staff member wants to bring to you and wants to discuss, they know that that's the time that it's going to happen. They can prepare themselves to have that discussion so that it's not something that they feel like is open for all for everybody to hear. It's uh, you know, what we say in our one-on-one stays in the vault. That's between us. I can help you with your career goals. Like you can let me know what's going on in your personal life. You know, we can talk about KPIs and all those other things we need to talk about, but that's a structured time when I'm focused 100% on you and not all the other noise going on. So that's my belief on one-on-ones. And the consistency of those one-on-ones changes depending on the structure of the team, how new the team are, how much they need from you, how much guidance and support you have to give them, what's going on in the rest of the business at the time. You know, if we've got a natural disaster that's just hit and we've got five team one-on-ones booked for that day, of course we're not going to do the one-on-ones because we're sorting out those sorts of issues. But yeah, that that's my feeling on it. If we have younger people coming into the industry, and I'm very big on nurturing green newbies into our industry and growing our profession. So we've got to actually look after them. Like we've got to make sure that their goals are still aligned, that there's nothing else they need from us that we may be missing out on. And how are they feeling? Like people decide with two to four weeks whether they're going to stay with you or not. So, with especially within that first 90 days, we need to be checking in a lot with our team. We can't just sit them in a seat and go, there you go, there's your laptop, there's your logins. Come see me at the Christmas party.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah, yeah. Are you uh remind me where you're based? Are you in New South Wales or Melbourne? I'm New South Wales on the beautiful South Coast. Beautiful. Um, and I was I just couldn't remember because I saw the um that Victoria law coming in, which is the from the first of September, I think, which is the the every employee will have the right to work from home two days a week. Have you seen that one? Yeah, a lot of talk about that happening. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

What was your thought on it? Oh my thought on that is the government government should not be able to force a business owner to tell them where their staff should be working. The government had the 40% shareholders of our business anyway, have their blinkers on if they think that they know what is right for every single business in Victoria. So I think a blanket rule like that is quite ill-informed. I I don't think I don't think that that is the right way ahead.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

I've just although I've just had so many questions. It'll be really interesting when it comes out because my questions were so how does that work for a receptionist? Does that mean on the two days that the receptionist is working from home, do they have a phone system? Do they get to do different duties? Does someone have to cover that? What about people that are that are the full-time leasing consultants or inspection or field officers, I think you guys call them? Like, how do you are they gonna be made to have like other sorry, not made? Are they gonna how are they gonna have does that mean that two days of their time can be at home doing admin? Like I just have so many questions on the logistics.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Yeah, I I'm on exactly the same page as you. And is it for every person in every role in Victoria? Like, how can we make that work? Does that, you know, and a lot of people put their hand up to say they actually can't work from home? Like a lot of people will say that they get distracted and do the washing, or you know, they've got kids in the background, and that's a distraction as well. So a lot of people

Why One On Ones Work

SPEAKER_01 27:25

can't work from home and they own that that's not gonna be the right place for them. Some people do get more done at home. So I think we have to base it not just on a the role that somebody's doing, look at their lifestyle, look at what that is best going to be achievable for them in what they're doing for their day-to-day life and their work.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

And then it'll be interesting to see whether there's the boundaries around well, do they have the right to split that two days over four half days? Are they uh is a business owner going to be able to put a restriction on those two days only being on Wednesdays and Thursdays and not on Mondays and Fridays? Like, I I mean, I would be devastated for Victoria if there was no rule on that, because the amount of people that would, you know, want Mondays and Fridays, like that would be completely unfair. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:21

It like I do understand, and you know, a lot of business owners, and I would have to say the majority of business owners are open to discussion on hybrid roles since we've been through COVID. Like, let's say the horrible seat word that changed a lot of things, and a lot of business owners have been more open to hybrid roles or staff leaving earlier to accommodate working mums or, you know, those sorts of things. So I I don't think it needs to be a forced thing. I I think we've already got business owners that are keeping it as options anyway.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

And I think it those businesses that maybe didn't allow it will eventually be weeded out anyway because people will go choose to work with a company that has more flexibility. So I like I sort of agree. I don't think it's something that the government should enforce. But I just think if you're, I mean, my my team work from home 95% of the week is at home. They only have what is it? Oh no, maybe it's uh 90% because they only have a compulsory four hours in the office a week. So that's what mine do. And so I don't, it's it's not that I think that it affects business. I think business is fine with two days work from home, but it's the control number one. But the I just I think that yeah, if you didn't offer the flexibility, you're gonna lose your team over time anyway. So let that just naturally happen when we don't think things when we don't allow things to naturally happen in this cycle and there's interference, it's that's where we just get so many problems.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

So now this is a forced change on people that is gonna have a bit of fear in it as well. So let's just, as you say, let things happen. But I don't think the government, back to your original question, I don't think the government should have the authority to tell business owners and their teams the way they should be working within the intricacies of their business that the government aren't aware of.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Yeah, 100%. It's amazing. Well, love to chat into you. Sorry, um, I was a little bit late on to the podcast. But I where's the best place for people to reach you? What platform do you prefer these days?

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Oh, look, I'm all over everything. I'm on the LinkedIn and Insta and Facebook and on our Sidekick website, you can always jump on there, and there's a calendarly link to book in a Zoom with me. So WhatsApp, me not shy, you can find me everywhere. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

I think it's it's a great program that you've got, and I'm glad that there's that being offered. And I think that regardless if you are a business owner in in one of those head of department roles, even you know, reception or property managers, I feel like there was there'd be something that they would benefit from in being with a team, I would imagine. Would that be fair to say? Like, would there be anyone that wouldn't that wouldn't do it?

SPEAKER_01 31:25

No, we've got up-and-coming leaders, so people that are looking to step into the leadership role. We've got department heads, we've got business owners, we've got people that

Work From Home Rules Debate

SPEAKER_01 31:35

have been in the industry in this round one year, and we've got someone in the industry 45 years. So that's the whole gamut, the whole rainbow of the people that we have involved in Leadership Accelerator. And it's a wonderful community of support where you get to feel like you're not alone, that we're speaking the same language and there's other people that have been in the same shoes as you.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

I love that diversity because I am sure that everybody learns so much from someone who has only been in one year versus the 45 years. I think that that would be an incredible balance to really get some really good conversations happening inside the group. So that's really, really exciting. Amazing. All right, well, thank you for jumping on, and I will see you soon. Thank you, lovely. Take care.