The Rent Guarantee That Made Everyone Furious

We sit down with Karen and daughter Jules to unpack what it really takes to grow and protect a rent roll across changing markets, shifting fees, and constant industry churn. We share the systems, numbers, and mindset behind building a property management business that landlords trust and that teams can actually sustain. 

• Karen’s path from early roles to launching her own rent roll business and returning after a forced sale 
• the hunger behind rapid growth and the practical reality of mortgages and risk 
• handling fee pressure and rent guarantee offers without racing to the bottom 
• using spreadsheets and rent results to reframe value for landlords 
• referral driven growth from the existing database plus simple incentives 
• tracking lead sources and reallocating time to the highest return activities 
• Jules’s corporate real estate background and why portfolio careers are rising 
• a task based team model with clear landlord and tenant touchpoints 
• why REIQ involvement matters and how training principals can reduce churn 

Karen Herbert - Principal Licensee - Arrive | Brisbane & Gold Coast Real Estate Agency

Detector Inspector | Safer Homes

This podcast is kindly sponsored by The Associates Co. 

The Associates Co provides fully trained professionals to assist you with scaling your property management department. They are ready to hit the ground running! Once a luxury, VA's are now a staple in every business, whether you are managing 5 properties or 500+

Head over to www.theassociatesco.com

Transcript

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Meet Karen And Jules

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Alrighty, this one is going to be fun because I have got a lovely lovely couple. I've got two lovely ladies joining me today. We have got Karen and Jules. And Karen and Jules are a mother, daughter, mother and daughter, and they got have come onto the podcast, but we haven't actually met before. We haven't actually had a conversation before. So I'm not sure at which way this conversation is going to go, but we're going to give it a go. And I'm excited. So Karen, I'm going to start with you. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you. Great to be here. Excellent. And we've got Jules on the side. So Jules.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Hello, hello. Good to be here.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Amazing. Now I'm going to start with you, Karen, because I want to find out a little bit more about yourself. If you can tell our listeners who are in the property management industry a little bit about yourself, what

Karen’s Path Into Property Management

SPEAKER_00 1:00

you're up to now, and sort of where your history has been as well in the property management industry. I'm from. Gee.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

That's a that's a bloated question. I started 25 years ago in a place called Brisbane Realty. And unfortunately, the sales principal at the time hated property management. And of course, I've come in and it's just one of those situations where I don't know if you, you or any of your listeners have ever felt that you've landed in something and you just feel like you've been you've come home. And I felt like I came home. And it didn't take me very long to realize that somebody could be doing this better. So I started my first property management business in 2001. 15 years later, we grew up to about 12, 13, can't remember now, gonna need a bit far away. But unfortunately, life had a little bit of a twist for us, and my marriage broke broke down. But and that at that point in time, I didn't realize that I'd have to sell my baby. You mean 1200? 1200. What does that? You said 12. Oh, 1200. This is just and um here. So I had a uh five-year retention on me, restraint of trade. So I went and did some consulting and did some due diligence and helped people with their sales principles, with their rent roles. And anyway, my accountant called me one day and said, Are you ever coming back into property management? I said, Yeah, because the person that you're consulting to really needs to sell. So I offered them a silly amount of money and they accepted. And that was sort of brought me back in. I now have a company called Arrive. I love property management, I love what I do. I've sat with REIQ on their board for probably eight chapters, and I'm a trainer, and and I'm really pleased to be here to talk to you. So good. I um how many?

SPEAKER_00 2:48

So you're how long have you had your business for your current business for now?

SPEAKER_02 2:53

Uh 2017. So what's that? Nine years.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

Okay. And so, and how many properties have you got under management? 430 currently. Amazing. So I want to actually go back a little bit with regards to the first business and the new growth because that was an incredible growth, like for the first business. I was hungry. How yeah, I was gonna say, how did you do it? What was it?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Was it like was there something like I actually had a bet with my 10-year-old son at the time, and the bet was that if we could get a hundred properties in the first year, then I don't know. I think I think uh the deal was we would take them to that laser gun place for his birthday. So that was my motivation, and we made it. We just made it. So yeah, laser force. Oh my god. I didn't know about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you weren't even born, I don't think.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

I was gonna say, Jules, has she not had any bets with you? Maybe you could be starting a little debate.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

No, actually, I was never a password for anything. It was always my brother and sister. She always tells that story.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

So, yeah, we had um we had a thing called Investors Club. I don't know whether you know that back in the day. No, you're too young. So they used to sell all of their, you know, they do off the plan stuff

Growing To 1200 Properties Fast

SPEAKER_02 4:05

and sell their to their product to investors, and then they'd farm it out to three other agents and sort of doggy dog, whoever got the first lease got the management. So that certainly helped. But I guess it was just I was so hungry and determined, and I was the gear, it just was a gift. It came in very easily.

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Yeah, interesting. Like, I still find that quite fascinating because like hunger in in a BDM role generally comes from situation of pain, I guess. And you, I mean, I I I don't know you, so I'm I don't know if there was, but like I guess I'm thinking of you, you know, yourself, you've got a family, you start your business. So many businesses these days, they they do exactly that, but they don't have the same hunger. So was there something that was a pain point back then to drive you? Like, I know that there would have been more of a pain point in your existing business after separating, starting again, being older, all of those things. Yeah, but was there a pain point back then? Yeah, there was.

SPEAKER_02 5:08

I had three children at the time, and we had two houses, and so we had mortgages, and and my husband at the time was doing sales on in something or other, can't remember. And I remember turning around to him and saying, Hi, honey, is it okay if I drop my job and then start a business and you have to pay for everything? And and he had faith enough in me to say yes, and within a year he joined us in sales, and that's what that's how we survived for the next 15 years. So was good. You guys were good, like you you're a good team.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Yeah, we were you good, you're we got news in some respects. You I feel like you you made it work and you made it work quickly. I remember you saying a lot of the time, a lot of your lead generations were all like organic and word of mouth, and people in the local community being like, oh my god, take it, take it to position one. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

But he also he stayed in his box and I started mine. So it worked out well.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think yeah, back then that would have been incredible work, but hard work, but also like what Jules just said, it was very much community driven and referral based from it, which I would imagine like now in your in I say new business, but you know what I mean, it's not really new. But so how have things changed? Have you have you found that there's been a change, or if you've put have you gone back to the good old-fashioned way of growth, or has it have you adapted differently for a different time?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, uh look, I think I'm sure you'd everybody would agree it's extremely competitive out there and to the point where you know, so there's there's some people offering to do it. In fact, I've just lost a whole bunch of VIP clients, 16 properties. So this really, really hurt. And we turned his portfolio around that pretty much all in the belly. Anyway, he did this whole rent guarantee, he went with this rent guarantee thing, and they were offering 5%, including GST. Get over the hope everybody's listening to me because you're we worked goddamn too hard for that. And then they would guarantee the rent. So no matter how long it was vacant for, they would pay the rent. And I just went, I can't compete against that. And so I had to let him go, but he's coming back.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Did you how did you how did you handle that in terms of with when he said that that's what he was doing? Was do you react to that by by saying that's you know, that's ridiculous, that's you know, and and sort of give them a little bit of a business lesson, which is sometimes what I do, or do you do you let them sort of go? Like, how do you handle that? Because I think there's a lot of people listening that uh that have absolutely experienced that. Our office was actually this week we had two that we lost to fees as well. And it's it's it's it's like it'd be interesting to know how yeah, how you deal with that because to make them feel comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Well, I guess when we only had, we probably started with about a quarter of his portfolio, and we tried very hard to woo him over. And I think at the end of the day, we knew who his other properties were with, and it was just about mathematics. So if we did a big spreadsheet, we showed him how much we would have rented that property for, and I think there was a different difference of $50,000 in the rent. So at that point in time, he eventually gave us his entire portfolio. So I sort of did the reverse. I knew I did the numbers and I knew that we were going to so by losing his portfolio, it was going to cut $30,000 of income off our off our yearly and so that's a lot of money. So, you know, the question is being how far do you go to negotiate to maintain that client? So I went to a point and I think it was 6%, including GST, but he'd already gone. So but I have taken a snapshot, I've given him the numbers. I've said, we we we have collect you $510,000 a year in rent, which is $2,000 a week. And I said, and I want you to remember that, and let's have a look at it again in six months' time and see where you're at. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

And then um stay tuned. Well, let's do another podcast in six months and find out all about it. That's fine. Yeah. And so, okay, so you sort of make sure that they do understand what they're getting moving to, make sure that if someone's gonna promise something, make sure that they know that they need to hold that agent accountable if you're gonna move to them. I think is a really great way of doing it. Yeah. How are you at the moment? How at the moment are you getting new managements? Like, do you have a bit of a plan that you're currently working with? Are you

Competing On Fees And Guarantees

SPEAKER_00 9:45

mainly referrals, like referral agents, community? What does it look like? Cold calling?

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Yeah, I think if anybody's going to say, what's the easiest way to get new management? It has to be your own database, doesn't it? And that reminds me over and over again. So, yes, we offer a small referral, nothing much. I've just sent my landlord twice now to dinner for 200, he and his wife for $250. So he keeps throwing them at me. I had some guy, he wanted a $250 Westfield batcher for his wife every time. And he'd just say, Come on, send it out, send it out. Here's another one. So it's just crazy. But it's really nice. I had a phone call from Melbourne today saying somebody had just referred to. So I think that's the easiest way and it's the most satisfying way, isn't it? It sort of makes you warm and fuzzy. But we have other things in place.

SPEAKER_01 10:34

So you also keep track on which ones I guess are most effective to sort of like push your energy towards it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:42

Well, that's where Julia comes in.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

So she she we take stock on like yeah, you tell what you do other end of month. Like if it's, you know, if we find that like by having meetings with like buyers agents or developers are most effective, then it's like, okay, well, let's allocate more of the week's time towards those activities. But if if it's like, you know, you have to hand out 2,000 letterbox drops to get one call back, just forget about it. Like, honestly, don't waste your time. So yeah, we switch every now and then.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

The latest one is Julia's come up with a beautiful email to a lot of the sales agents down here because I'm looking to grow the Gold Coast portfolio. I'll just say that again. We're looking to grow the Gold Coast portfolio. And uh, so she's she's researched and found out all the heavy hitter salespeople down the Gold Coast. So we're writing to them to say, can we catch up and have a coffee and maybe collaborate?

SPEAKER_00 11:33

Amazing. Now, um, Jules, what I love about you is the little story that you shared before we press record. And that was that when you were a kid, you never wanted to get into real estate, and now you are, and that just gives me so much personal satisfaction that my 17-year-old daughter, who continually reminds me that there is no way in hell she'll be getting out of real estate, maybe one day will. So um, like you said, get her to watch this podcast. And um, she looks a little bit like you, so I might even just sort of say, hey, look at this this first lady, she she's gonna do what you're gonna do. But tell me what your position is, and and have you been with this business from the start, or have you come in for support down the line?

SPEAKER_01 12:15

Oh, so I haven't been here, I haven't been with you from the start. I've been I've been hovering. Hovering, yeah. I've been orbiting around you from the start and uh like observing, I suppose.

SPEAKER_02 12:26

I think after she so after she did her degree in in commerce and economics, get that. We're coming out of a real estate person. I think she eventually sort of tried got a little more insight and got a little bit of interest when we would talk about budgets and projections and things like that. And then you could tell the story where you ended up after you.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

I went straight to Sydney after you now finish. I was like 22, 23, or something, and I was like, in we were in Brisbane, and I was like, I need to move out of here and I need to try and it's nothing new. Out of here, I'm done. So dramatic. Oh my god. But that's what it was. I'm not gonna lie. And then just that age, you know. And then I I did actually, sorry, before I left to Sydney, I did like a penultimate year thing at Night Frank in in Brisbane, and it was like rotation of like you do the four, you know, you do asset management, industrial cap markets, and something else, I think. Can't remember what a and then somebody and then lead you to CDRE. Then I got a job at CBRE and and worked in tenant representation there. So leasing. Opposite of a leasing agent, essentially. So we would like negotiate leases on behalf of big corporate clients. Like if a you know KPMG wanted to take two levels, for example, in like you know, in the middle of George Street, they would like hire someone from our team to cut them better conditions and save them money on their lease and give them more protective clauses and stuff. So I did that for about two and a half years. Um then you negotiated our lease at MacLeod. Yeah, but then I got you a stonking deal. Stonking, stonking deal. I think I cut like $500 per like square meter off your, like I just very good. Absolutely hammered your landlord. Um so missile. Actually, he's not watching this.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

You worry me, I don't get commercial pink or so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:25

And then I uh I actually I fell out of love with corporate real estate. It was great. I I cut my teeth on it and I learned a lot about negotiating leases and it's fantastic. It was such a bloky, blokey world too, wasn't it? There was a few women in my team, but yeah, it was pretty, it was quite chaotic, but but it no, it was great. I just fell out of love with it and I went and worked, started working in the music industry again. So now I'm kind of split between the two worlds. So doing working with arrive part-time, and then I'm also working in music here at the Gold Coast. So it's it's great, but I've had the best time. It's it's been really nice working with you again at Shea. That's nice. Did you hear that? I did.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

And I I hope my daughter is gonna say those same words in general.

Referral Growth And Tracking What Works

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, we can maybe hook Julia and your daughter up. We'll hang out. I will, I will. The I mean, this this I've got so many questions in my head, but the first one I just want to ask you, Jills, is uh how old are you now? I am 29, turning 30 in a couple of months. So, I mean, probably a little bit sort of more referring to younger generation, but I do I have been talking a lot around how I think the younger generation are going to be wanting what I call portfolio careers, where it is not going to be stuck in a full-time job, it's gonna be doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Yeah, I think that like from I guess I guess from your point of view, you know, you love your music and you do that, and then you're doing some real estate. Is that something that you think is in your um sphere of friends? Is that really where do you do you believe that we're heading in that direction as well? Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

Like the amount of conversations I've had with people in my generation, and they're like, one thing, like I don't want to do one thing for the rest of my life, like it's way too boring. So I think we have a lot of like multi-faceted, multi-talented people that are all doing, all doing the same thing, like they might have one more stable part-time job, and then they might have their like passion projects or side hustles or whatever. So I definitely think we're going down that way for sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

And I think as well, like I mean, I I have like I have no idea about you, but I would sort of expect suggest that you know, one would be a bit more of a fixed income, and then music, which is more of a passion, which you maybe it could be a seasonal role, it maybe it's not, but it's fulfilling more of a creativity and such a such a great balance of of yeah, like you must be loving life.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

It's I am loving life. It does get a bit difficult sometimes. Like I've only just gotten really good at juggling the two mindsets now, but previously it was very hard to step from like a bit more of a corporate, you know what I mean, financial mindset, yeah, and then jump jumped into moving. And you're talking to like completely different demographics and audiences and people as well. So I speak two different languages often, yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

And I think one of the best things for for me, and probably if I could say there I on a behalf of a principal, it's been really nice to have a relative, like somebody who you can trust that has that business acumen and can look and step out of the business because I'm very much in the business because I love what I do. And a lot of other principals, of course, usually are traditionally sales oriented, but so it's been really nice. So she can look down, massage it, do do all the KPIs, do all the budgeting. Uh so it's it's been terrific. It's been a godsend to have.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

Oh, and it's just going to give you a completely different someone else to give you a completely different view on situations and business. And I said to you before that I've got a few PM collective members who have got their children in the business as well. And they they do it for various reasons, but I just think the the insight is incredible and it's really nice that you've got the ability to to share it as well. If we could go into the structure of your business, then so you've got just over 400 properties. What does the structure look like and who's in your team?

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Yeah, so we're a little bit different, Ashley, in that. So whatever whatever port management system you could think of insofar as running a property management division, I've done it. And there are certain, you know, people used to say, how many properties should a property manager have, etc., etc. So traditionally, with my previous life in position one, we had so many we had to do portfolio. But of course, as you know, the the the bummer with that is the property manager goes, what do you do? Yes, what traditionally everybody does, they divide the portfolio, they dump it all on all the other property managers, they just get more and more properties, and and it's it's it's not the way to go. Well, not in my world. So we do it a bit differently. We, I guess what your listeners would probably know as task management. So I pretty much am the face and I am the contact with the landlords, which they love because when we take over management, one of the biggest things, the most, or by far, that they come to me is because I don't know who my property manager is anymore. How sad is that? How sad is that for our industry? They just get turned to burn and and they have to leave, which is so sad. And I just like bot in here.

SPEAKER_01 19:46

My last rental, because I've just moved back from Sydney, like I don't know, maybe a month and a half ago. My last rental, I was in I was in a rental in Bondi, and we had like I'm not kidding. I am not kidding. We had five different property managers in the past. I will not say what the real estate name was.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

That's just no, don't say because I don't edit, I don't have time for editing.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

So no, no, no, no. But five different properties. It was really sad. It was so hard, we had to keep going back and forward on comms, us and the and the owner. So the owner just

Jules On Portfolio Careers

SPEAKER_01 20:59

kept reached out to us directly in the end because he was like, I can't deal with this anymore.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

And that's a whole other podcast as to why property managers churn and burn. So I look after all the landlords on their constant, which is terrific. We got a fantastic software, and but I couldn't do it alone. So I have we have what we call a residence concierge. Don't you like that? Sounds very black, doesn't it? Residence concierge. And so she looks after all of our beautiful tenants and and onboards them and as the little you know handhold thing for them. She's terrific. She comes from she comes from the country, she likes a beer, we just love her. And of course, then I've got somebody who'll do all the financial stuff, and she sort of looks after us, somebody who'll do all the inspection. So, but put it all together and you have magic. Amazing.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

The structure is one of the biggest things that uh people don't really have confidence for. And so that's why it's so good to share how we separated those tasks. Um, who does maintenance? Is that a separate?

SPEAKER_02 22:03

So well, the system, the software program, you know, everybody's got their own app. So it can actually automate it mostly. I've got a beautiful dashboard, but I do have this ex-plumber. He and I have been together for 30 years. He moved to the mountain, he's not coming down from the mountain anymore. And so, but he needs something to do. So he helps me and he's thrifting. He used to work for SES. So state emergency services. So, and and we're actually interesting. This is terrible to say, we're actually on second generation trade. So he used to work with all the dads who I did. Now we're on the sons. So he lacks up.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

amazing and um can you share your tech stack with us can you share your tech stack like what software you use our software yeah it's called our property okay yeah so our property so they're coming up and they've advanced quite a bit recently um yes they have so I think there's a few more that have followed now and they're all stepping up their game I used to be the old console girl but they couldn't they couldn't do what our property did back in the day and and and of course I was one of those witches on the broom when we started with our property and said I want this I want that I want this I want that I want this and they did it and I went this is great yeah so and of course we we do our finance we do our trust accounting off sh off with them now so that's uh that was a that was a really big leap of faith absolute leap of faith and I know a lot of property managers don't want to let go of that trust accounting but I tell you what it's one of the best things you do so good well done do you have goals for for this business with where you want to get it to or are you so when I find that with businesses they either have a financial goal for the business when they're going to exit or they've got an age goal you know when I get to this age I'll um I'll sell do you have any goals that you're sitting with inside yeah that's a really tough one to answer honestly because yeah I don't want any of my landlords to hear this but um so probably I think you know the Olympics is going to be a really big thing in Brisbane and and I know we're running to people who are come coming in in drives from Sydney and Melbourne and they're bringing their own teams with them to bring infrastructure into Brisbane.

SPEAKER_02 24:20

We don't even have enough housing for our own but however in saying that you know a lot of people are pinning you know their exits or their succession or their sale or whatever on that Olympic. So I'd probably maybe think about that which is maybe 3031 something like that.

SPEAKER_00 24:38

Yeah and can you um also just my last question for you today is talk about sitting on the chapters for the REIQ and the importance of property managers considering stepping up in those types of spaces what why should like why should they do that and why is that important to be involved in that well I think we get to see once in the in the secret secret boardroom we I mean Antonio American is she's just amazing the helm of the RERQ and I just bow down to her it's wonderful and she's a woman which is terrific but she's also pretty political and pretty powerful.

SPEAKER_02 25:21

So she loves to shake some feathers and so I I enjoyed that as well and I think it's you get an opportunity to give a feedback from property managers and why what things are working, what we're after what we need in training which we did some great stuff. And I guess make try and make a difference. So we I pushed a lot I was a big training

Task Based Team Structure And Tech

SPEAKER_02 25:44

thing and for for property management. We used to go and play with the the residential tenancies we do meetings with them so you can get involved with all sorts of things and I think it's a wonderful opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 25:54

They won't let me in anymore because I've done my my you know that's enough and that's fair enough I'll hand over the banner but I would encourage anybody to to hand up yeah put your hand up and get involved and it's just very self-satisfying I feel like when you're around that as well like you you're just forced to stay on the precipice of the industry as well you know what I mean it's so good for your mindset in that way too yeah yeah we we did some good changes.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Yeah are you going to the REIQ lift I am I've already booked in amazing night oh you've got to see that I'm coming over so they're they've uh they've put me as an ambassador which I just think they're just gonna put a they're gonna put a daggy t-shirt on me and uh help me you know coordinate where people go I'm assuming I don't know but I'll be over there so we should be good yeah but I I think it's it's good to support the other REIQs and also the other REIs and as an industry you know they do do good stuff for us with all their personal work at stuff I I did met uh meet Antonia on um on the Zoom that we had where we were talking about it and she does seem like a a pretty good strong person to have on the committee. So good of you guys um and I know I said last question but I've got one more what do you do your training in and what's your passion with with training do you do a lot of just in legislation or anything specific?

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Are you talking internally or topics? Yeah just just I guess if you were consulting for someone do you have a specialty um I don't know whether you still consult or not but when you did was there something that you trained that you really sort of loved to focus on two parts the two answers to that question because I have had a well had a company called property management rescue not so much anymore and the idea for that was to be a mentor be a support system for property managers. What it turned out to be really in the end which is not a bad thing is that principals would call me sales principals and say come and fix my property management division. So the biggest challenge ended up being not the property managers the biggest challenge for me was training the principals to look after their property management. And that is still a big challenge today. And if we could solve that problem we wouldn't have so many property managers leaving the industry.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

It is a massive issue and I 100% agree and you know the struggle that I'm having is and maybe this is where we probably need to do another podcast and brainstorm. Yeah so I I also have a bit of an issue with what I call sales led directors where they don't have any direct interest in property management but they want all the benefits that the property management department brings. Yes. And so but the problem is is that those people the sales led directors don't listen to my podcast and they don't listen and follow me because property managers do. So I've got to work out a way how to get those sales led directors to listen to me. Maybe like I need to create a sales podcast or something that they'll listen to and then just drop in every now and again PM tips. I I don't know how to do it because they're the ones like the people that listen to the podcast are the ones that are already invested they're doing great stuff but it's not reaching them so I think we need to think about how to do that because this is a whole yeah a whole new new podcast that's just just realistic.

SPEAKER_02 29:22

But isn't that but isn't that typically an office in real estate you've got salespeople over there and property management over there and the two don't carry and it just that's another goal opportunity missed like you're talking about goals because I know you just talked about like overarching sales goals but you know obviously we just have the Fed budget announced so something that we're really working on off the back of that is how we create a more cohesive ecosystem feed through between sales and property management and and workers one dream team together.

SPEAKER_00 29:52

We're already doing it but we're really really dialing it up and and being that false holistic support for

REIQ Leadership And Training Principals

SPEAKER_00 29:59

clients so whatever you need I will support that holistically I think is really where industry is going um and that's where I would I would like us to see us being not just a property manager support but someone you can call for everything because if I don't know the answer I'm gonna pass you on to the right person because I'm so well connected that I'll be able to look after you anyway and having that mindset if everyone could have that I think we can really do some good stuff. But I also just feel like I think property managers don't understand their value because their property managers have literally got a database of all these clients that everyone wants the sales agent wants them the business owner wants them the buyer's agent wants them and the broker wants them. Yep are sitting holding it and like you know what we can actually control that trajectory like we we are the only ones that are in so much contact with our clients and nurturing them that they're trust us with them. So if I say to a client listen don't go with that agent go with that one they'll listen to you and it's like we hold so much value and maybe we're not taking advantage of that as as much as we should it's not their it's not their mindset really is it they're they're Trojans they're workhorses and they just want to please all the time but you're correct value is a really important word yeah absolutely well it it has been an absolute pleasure I don't know what I was getting into when I was coming on to this recording but I am very thankful for both of your time and I think that there is definitely a lot small conversations to be had so I for for you and for anyone else that's that's listening I love having guests approach me and to come on because it makes my life easier and it saves me from having to do monologues because I hate doing monologue podcasts and I was really going to have to do one. So it's great that I've got used to but I just made it very easy yeah great I'm so glad and it's but it's so good just to hear more about yourself. So loving the the the daughter relationship in it loving the fact that you have sold a business and then done it all again and love that's that whole concept and so I know that that just resonates with so many people listening who are in maybe in the trenches unsure if they can do it again you know all of those things it's just so relatable and I just yeah I am very very thankful that you've shared that with us and please when you're ready book in for another one so we can watch me we'll be back to a little bit more of a chat so thank you for your time and I look forward to connecting more with you. Thanks Ashley's gonna