Why Property Managers May Evolve Into Account Managers Focused On Service And Growth

We compare city and regional hiring in NSW, dig into a candidate-driven market, and map how VAs and automation are reshaping PM roles. We lay out a practical path to flexible work, stronger culture, and a service model that builds trust in the business, not just one person.

• NSW hiring contrasts between city and regional markets
• Candidate-driven conditions and persistent PM shortages
• Benchmarks for properties per head and why they stall
• VAs removing admin layers and redefining field roles
• PMs shifting toward account manager responsibilities
• Building goodwill through audits and feedback loops
• Tech focus on maintenance, tracking, and key management
• Flexibility as the top lever for attraction and retention
• Outcome-based rules for remote work and coverage
• Standards that protect teams and set client expectations

If you are located in New South Wales and want to connect with Carlie Barnett from Recruit & Consult, reach out to her on our Instagram. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Welcome to today's episode. We are joined by Carly Barnett from Recruit and Consult. Welcome, Carly.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Thanks for having me out.

NSW Hiring Patterns: City Vs Regional

SPEAKER_00 0:45

I am excited because I always love well, number one, I'm excited because I haven't actually met you or spoken to you properly before, and you are one of our wonderful coffee conversation hosts. So thank you for that support over there. But I always love speaking to people that are in the recruitment space because you just have such a different lens to what is going on in the industry. And I feel like yeah, that that knowledge is something that a lot of people should know of, especially when it comes to trends and all of that. And I know I what does the recruitment landscape look like in New South Wales? Is it is it a landscape that a lot of agencies embrace, or do people tend to still go old school with SIG? What does that look like at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

It probably depends where you are in New South Wales, and that's probably the same for other pockets of Australia too. I think the more regional areas probably rely a lot more on their network and the local community and word of mouth for a lot of hiring. I think when you get into the city, like Sydney, where we're based, there's definitely that push to work with recruiters, which is great. We do recruit in other markets outside of Sydney, so the Central Coast, that's about an hour and a half north of Sydney, Newcastle, then a bit further up the freeway from there. We've also had clients that are south of Sydney in Woolong reach out to work with recruiters. In those markets, I would say that not as many would engage with recruiters as maybe in Sydney. We're probably looking at maybe 20% of the market, 30% of the market there. It is a lot lower. Um, again, I think they just work on word of mouth, referrals. Some of those regional areas too can have a little bit better tenure in roles. People trying to like go in and lock into them. I find in the city there's a lot of opportunity. So they're jumping around and changing jobs, and there's a lot more tapping on the shoulder and being headhunted compared to in those regional areas.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah. And are you finding that is there any trend with more employers looking for employees, or vice versa?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Yeah, I think like we're still seeing that labor shortage. Like it's time, and and we're noticing it. Like if I look at property management, for example, there are still PMs that are exiting those PM roles, not necessarily exiting the industry. Like I met with one yesterday, and she really likes the industry. She doesn't really want to run a portfolio anymore. Like she may consider moving from resi to commercial, may look at accounts, may look at working with other tech platforms and do something there. So there's still a love for the industry, but wanting to move away from sitting in that seat of a resie PM. So we see that there is that shortage there. But I think it's still skewed more into the candidates' favor in the market at the moment. And what the candidates are after not always are met by the clients' offers, but I the clients like do seriously take on board those requests. Some of them are just unrealistic, but it is still very much a candidate-driven marketplace. And we see some markets that we operate in, it's taken months to find talent for clients. So they've really got to adjust their expectations.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Yeah. And I I think that's sort of a bit what we're going to talk about today, with a little bit of how AI has affected recruitment trends, because I would love to hear your insight with regards to where the benchmarking has been with the headcount in PM departments, because something I think we can all say that despite all the technology that we have got over the last 20 years, I don't believe the headcount for properties managed in a PM department has improved incredibly. And I think the REAP uh Chris Mercer's platform that I use, the benchmark for Australia is 100 per head. I'm sorry, yeah, 100 properties per head in a department. So what that means is we're not saying that the property managers manage 100 properties, but in the department, it's 100 head counts. So that's made up, you know, of offshore and leasing and you know, all of that. Ours sits at about 134, which is good, but I really would like to see that to at 150. And I'd like to see that as an industry, that benchmark going from 100 to 150 at least. Um do you see the same thing, like just no progression despite all the technology?

VAs And The New PM Team Structure

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I have like what I've noticed is that VAs coming into the market, they've been in our market for a long time, has has stricter layer out of talent. So, where we had a receptionist that did a lot of admin to the property management team, or an administrator in the PM team that might also do some leasing, that tends to be stripped out and moved to an offshore resource. And the resources now in the PM team are more on the field. So what we would call a property officer is now that field services officer. And they're doing your in-goings, your outgoings, your routines, your leasing, chasing keys, more stuff on the ground. And your PMs are more in your office, building the relationships, dealing with the high-level stuff, tribunal, bond claims, insurance claims, arrears, and dealing with all that sort of stuff. So I think there's that layer there with the VAs that strips that out of the market. We went out last year to see some clients to deliver our salary reports. And I noticed that a lot of the offices we went to, they don't have receptionists anymore. So that that role sort of moved out of the business as well. So that's where I think sort of some there's technology that can replace that, or a lot would come through to a mobile now. Um, when it comes to capping portfolios, uh, whenever we take on a role or we meet a candidate, I'd really like to dissect, okay, there's a hundred properties that you're managing, but what's it made up of? Because there's lots of factors to take into consideration. Is it a portfolio that's spread really far out across 10 different suburbs and there's lots of driving? Is it large houses that may have a lot of maintenance? It might be heritage listed or older properties, or are they all small apartments in one complex and that's why you're capable of running 300 at once? So I think there's things to take into consideration there with that portfolio size and that capability. I think with the technology and with AI and with those resources, you know, PMs can can do more than maybe what they could do when they were running 150 and doing all the inspections on their own and using carbon copy paper and not having a mobile and you know, server-based CRM systems. And I think we've definitely moved forward where they can work more proactively, but then they're more accessible. So there's more communication coming at them as well.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah, yeah. Okay. The very true with the receptions, that's definitely something that I am seeing. We we removed our receptionist during COVID. Um and um, and and it's not needed. We have a great phone system that goes straight through to mobiles. So that's yeah, I agree, that's definitely something that has changed. So if we start from the, well, actually, that's mean to say from the bottom, because a receptionist isn't the bottom, but you know what I mean. It's just yeah, how I'm gonna say it for the sake of this podcast. But if we start from the base of, okay, well, we have seen receptionists being removed and people not seeing value in that. So then we move it to, you know, the property manager. And now, this by all means, those listening, this is not a hierarchy, this is just the flow that I'm using. Reception to property manager to BDM. Now, if we have removed the reception, and then we've got the property manager, and then we've got the BDM. What I am working towards, and what I have seen, and what I think will probably be moved, is that potentially that property manager role could be well, we're already seeing parts of it being removed anyway, you know, with the offshore teams. But there was an article that I read the other day, and that was about sort of oh, what was it saying? Basically, it was that the property managers being more of that BDM role, where for me, that's sort of where I'm seeing more value to create a team of BDMs as opposed to property managers to bring you that growth. Now I know that with a team of BDMs, you're gonna have to increase your property managers as well, but that for me is where I think more of the trend will go towards BDM positions. And you know, just before I jumped onto this recording, I just had an interview with uh another BDM to go down that road. And I think a lot of business owners don't they sort of see the BDM base and commission as more of an expense, but it's such an investment investing in a base salary for a BDM, which is sort of the same as a base salary for a property manager, but they are bringing in new management. So yeah, as in having a bigger, potentially offshore team that is going to be looking after or having all the automation and yeah, and and offshore stuff with all the day-to-day management. There's really the the property manager should be working towards spot fires and physical interaction and inspections. I mean, yeah, I I genuinely believe that's really all ultimately they're gonna have to do in the future. Like, is there anything I missed with those roles? Do you think?

Portfolio Complexity And Capacity

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Do you think it even looks to go into more that account manager style of role where yes, it's a BDM and you're trying to find ways of bringing managements into a business, but also that account manager role where, and I think there's been models that have tried to do in the market. Like if you ring up about an insurance claim, all your case notes are there, you've got your case number, but anyone can jump into that and action it and things get moved and onto the next. And yeah, you might have your main person, but other people in the team can keep things moving for you. So I don't know if maybe that BDM does move into more that account manager style of role, and it's having a team that's great with their notes, great with the systems, everyone being across everything, and anyone can jump in at any point in time to action or flag something called move it along or give an update.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

Yeah, I love that. Actually, that's a really great analogy, like an insurance, yeah, like an insurance sort of company where you're just cool. That will probably remove it, will it'll allow more people to have flexibility in the property management role. And I I think that's really how you would manage massive, massive offices if we're gonna go in.

SPEAKER_01 11:49

Staffing too. Like if you've got turnover, it's gonna be less evident. You know, it's not gonna be as, you know, because oh, my my PM Ashley's left now, Sally's dealing with me, or Sally's on leave, so Mary's here for two weeks to cover me. It's like they get used to the whole team. Let me bring up your case notes. Like you feel very comfortable, someone's like, Across this, I've got everything in front of me, I know what I'm doing.

Reception Goes, Systems Take Over

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Yeah, absolutely. And I think maybe that's like a great thing for people to hear is that you know, to have your clients have more trust in the company and the business than that reliance on the staff member. And yeah, using that insurance analogy that, you know, for example, you know, RAC is that you use RAC and I trust that RAC will manage, you know, whoever's fair that manage what they need to. So a lot more trust in the business as opposed to the people in it, saying that those people still have to be great customer service and personable and good humor to service it when they get a phone call. But I think that that's a really interesting, yeah, an interesting uh perception for people to have. I know, I mean, that that's really is such an important part for people to think on that level. And I know that as a business owner, I do take full responsibility for my clients and maintaining that relationship with them. And I have to say that I have been fortunate most of the time with clients trusting the process that our office has as opposed to being too dependent on a property manager. So, like, or a BDM. So for example, our BDM finished in December and our new person started in January. And she gave me some really great feedback the other day. And she said, Oh, Ash, she goes, when, you know, because all the old BDM emails have been diverted to it. Yeah. Um, and she goes, absolutely because people aren't even batting an eyelid. Like I'm just saying, hey, Sam's finished, and you know, I'll take care of this for you and getting onto it. And they're like, Yep, fantastic, no worries. And I said, That's a really great sign and great feedback for me, that they haven't gone, oh, well, where is Sach? Or, you know, yeah, maybe I'm gonna second guess them. That's like that's the ultimate.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

Oh, absolutely. And that's almost like that experience of McDonald's. Like you can walk into any McDonald's, the cheeseburger tastes the same, the same uniform, like it's that uniformity. And I think that when that is there, and you do make a mistake and you own up, you build goodwill. McDonald's has built goodwill with Australia or the world, where when they make mistakes and they apologize, you're like, that's okay, because every other time I've come here, the cheeseburger's been fine. I just happened to be, you know, cold today or badly wrapped, whatever it was. So you'll forgive them on that goodwill and you'll come back. And the same with the business. If if there's confidence in who picks up the phone or who's dealing with the matter, and they're representing that in that continued uniform way across the board, when mistakes happen or people leave, there can be sort of forgiveness there and flex there.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah. I use the analogy of a glass half full. And I always say that when a new client comes into the business, the glass is half full. And if you just do your normal duties, as in, you know, just you collect the rain, you do what you're meant to do, you tick to the boxes, you're not really adding anything more, but you definitely actually pick that cup half full. Problem with doing that is that you do make mistakes, and everyone does. We do, everyone does. Yeah, you make it and and your cup, you know, empties, and then by the time it gets to the bottom, after a couple, you know, two or three mistakes, and that cup's now empty. Clients quite often will silently just go, you know what, last straw and see you later. But it's really important for us to always have healthy deposits, which one of the things that I do is the annual investor audit, which honestly that like fills the cup from half to full, nearly overflowing. Like it's so good. The clients absolutely love it. And so what happens is just that one good over service that you do, it gives you that little buffer. So when you do stuff up, they they don't worry about it as much. It's like that's why we always have to just have a few little healthy deposits in that cup.

SPEAKER_01 16:15

So we've got that allowance and taking on board that feedback, like I think it's it's one thing to ask for feedback, it's another to actually take it on board, don't be offended by it, don't be hurt by it. If sometimes feedback can be, you know, untrue or unwarranted or a bit extreme to what actually happened. But I think you, if you're going to put it out there requesting it, you have to be very open to taking it on and looking, okay, is this an issue? Do we need to adjust it or is there something in this that we need to make a change in the business?

SPEAKER_00 16:46

Yeah, absolutely. It it reminds me of like, I'm not sure whether you get any clients where they are constantly, constantly like rotating three people, uh three, you know, property managers. And yeah, do you ever like just want to say to them, are you the common denominator in this situation?

From PM To BDM And Account Manager

SPEAKER_01 17:04

Well, and sometimes you have to look at that. And and it's funny you say that because that can be a reason why someone won't go and apply for all interview for a course of the turnover. And we look at some business and go, Yeah, do you know what? It's just marker perception, it's really untrue. Or other times are like something's got to change here. Yeah, something really has to change. I don't think we can help.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

No, absolutely. Now, a couple of questions that I wanted to ask you is uh let me have a look at what question I think would be great to know more of. Okay, are new employees like when they come to you, are they asking more about technology? Are they taking that into account? Like, I want to go work with someone with more modern technology. Are they more curious that what tech support they've got, or is that not really a conversation that we're seeing at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Look, I think like software system process is important and people want to join businesses that are, you know, present with tech today and not stuck back in, you know, 2001 or the 90s. So it's look, it's not from what I'm seeing a huge factor of oh, I'll only join them if they use XYZ software or if they've got this AI function in place. I think it's more they want to understand what tech they used and what training there is going to be. Because if they've used platform A, but this business uses platform B, is someone gonna train me and get me up to speed on how to use a platform? So I will quite often get asked that. In the past, when the talent market was different, clients might be a bit more picky going, I absolutely need them to have used Property Me or Property Tree or rest, whatever it was, to take them on. Now they're like, it's okay as long as they've used a platform and they're tech savvy in working in a paperless cloud-based business, then we can fill in the gaps on the rest.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

Yeah, okay. That yeah, that's very similar to WA as well, I think. Have you seen any situations where officers have not replaced existing staff because they've got such amazing technology? So has anyone ever left all that you know of left a business and then the business owner gone, you know what? Our technology is so so awesome, we don't need to replace that person.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

Not necessarily. I think as we spoke about for like reception or the the shift in the way a department works with that field services person and the PM running the portfolio and the VAs and the tech, like that's probably the changes that we've seen. Yes, you know, automations help. And look, there are some clients that we work with over the years that have had staff that have been with them for a very long time in very paper-based, data-heavy roles, and then very resistant to change. That might be where, yes, that person moves on, they might not replace the role in the same capacity because there's far more automation there. But I haven't seen anything where you know AI's completely taken a role away. I think it's restructured and reshaped roles and responsibilities of roles.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

Yeah. Do you do you think that's a little bit slow on our part? Like, are we, is that like I just feel like we're on the edge of something drastic happening. I don't yeah, I don't know. Like, I just like I think I haven't even looked into this, but I saw something where there was this agency in the US and they have have like one person, I think, looking after 10,000 properties. Now, that is not physically possible with inspections and all of that. Yeah. But it does make me a little bit curious, like at the dra that at that such uh like at the drama of that 10,000 properties. It's like, okay, well, even if we get to a tenth of that are in at a thousand properties, yeah, like are we are we being oblivious to like the like the big world? Like I just I feel like we're just like a slow industry.

Trust The Business, Not Just People

SPEAKER_01 21:44

Yeah, I mean, look, I think real estate is a far more progressive than the recruitment industry when I look at like training and tech and progress. But then you look at like I've had a client that went to China and stayed in a hotel there, called receptional room service to bring something up to the room and a robot delivered it. Quite often now you can go for mostly Asian cuisine, like go for dumplings or something, and a robot will deliver your food. You know, is there going to be the scope where the robot and there's robot deliveries in America, like you know, that you see them in the streets and driverless cars? Are they gonna be the ones running their keys to properties or doing inspections with a camera on them or something? Like, you know, who knows? It's very possible. I was watching the Today show this morning, and there's some sort of AI that's been developed that you can, I won't get too graphic here, but it will go into toilet and it can track like good for the elderly, like urine, like a sample, and watch like their health and monitor things. You this is stuff that's like, yeah, it's really obvious it should be able to do that. But oh my god, why didn't we think of it? You know, it's it's crazy what AI can do. Talking about it, understanding when you get into a lift, what floor you generally go to, so that will just take you there, what temperature you like your property when you normally come home, so it will have that ready for. For you. Like, it's crazy to think what it can do. So there's no reason why real estate can't be hugely disrupted by it. I think when you look at what happens in America and China and things like that with tech, we don't do a lot of that here. Like we just haven't adopted it yet.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

No, I think the platform, I mean, like property man are going really amazing at the moment with their progression and their updates. I think the product to watch at the moment is Tarpey. So we're with Tary and um caught up with Taylor when I was over actually in the UK just the other week. And just so I don't know. And because Kim and I were having a private dinner, I'm not sure what I'm allowed to say and what I'm not allowed to say. So I'm not gonna go, I'm not gonna go into it too much. But what I will say is that if you are not on Tapi at the moment, I would highly recommend that you get on that ASTAP because that is probably the only tech that I'm seeing with some really awesome game-changing plans that are directly going to affect the property manager's role and their capacity. So, you know, when he was talking to me at sort of about it, which it means it sounds like it's only really 12 months away from these really drastic, impressive changes. I just thought to myself, gosh, imagine being one of the officers that haven't embraced Tarpe and knowing what I know that's coming out, and you just completely like missing the vote. Like it's not a plug for TAPI, they're not even one of my sponsors, but I am an avid user. Yeah, that that's the that's the only only game-changing one that I'm personally seeing. I feel like you know, we we as property managers and business owners are so reliant on people like you know, companies like TAPI. Like that's we're going to only go as fast as what they go, like course, yeah, and how they uncomplicate things for us.

Building Goodwill And Feedback Loops

SPEAKER_01 24:59

Like, if you look at headphones, like why would you ever use corded headphones? How annoying now that you know you can have wireless ones, like someone changed that and no one would ever go back now. And same with property management, things will change and people will never revert back. And Tarpe actually had a conversation with a client the other day that's implemented it, and some of the things that it can track now. I was thinking, I've got clients that hire people to track things like warranties and dates and stuff like that when they have properties externally managed, you know, private landlords. I'm like, this is just this doesn't just apply to a real estate business. This could be private landlords and investors and people that have property portfolios, and it's game changing.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

So there's so much. And and so much so that like I've got a young property manager who's just having a bit of a tough, you know, when everything happens all at once and yeah, yeah, crappy tenants and landlords all just all hit you in one week. She started one of those weeks and had a good chat with her the other day. And you know, we spoke about property management. Does she want to stay in it? Does she not? And she goes, no, no, no, I want to stay in it. I was like, you know what? Like you just need to hold on. So anyone that's having a bad property manager day that's listening, I would say, if you can just hold on for 12 months and see what changes and improvements they're going to be. I think that sometimes we just need to know that there is some really awesome stuff happening in the future. And I would hate someone to make a decision about potentially leaving the industry now because it is overwhelming. Because I think it, you know, all of this just happens all at once. And all of a sudden it's like going, it's just gonna like just be a game changer. So we're just like at that peak of it all bubbling, you know. Um and I would say to those people having a tough time, you know what, just hold out for 12 more months, yeah, tough you, and see if that improves things because I'm pretty comfortable that it will. Yeah, but you sort of have to you have to be a little bit future, you know, thinking and thinking, okay, is this gonna be my life for the next 10 years? And it's like, no, it's not gonna be your life.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

That's just something, yeah, and it always evolves and changes, you know. I'm sure that key cabins are gonna be a thing of the past too. Like it's there's gonna be so many things that will change.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Do you know what? Keys, like I reckon that that is the one thing that I think someone needs to come in and sort it out. And I think well, actually, part of what Tappy's plans are are going to be bringing that, yeah. Destroy the key part as well. So yeah, and and that needs to be. I actually went to the US purposefully to look at how they are managing keys in their offices. The difference over in the US is that yes, they do have like, you know, codes and all of that on their front doors, but their their homes tend to only have one door. Where in Australia, we're so big on security screens and front doors, they don't have as many security screens over there. So that's really a little bit more trickier for us. But I did go through a stage where on our fee schedule, I had put on there, I think I put down, you know,$500 for a setup for that was to include a keyless entry, lockbox, and the keys, locks to all be changed to one key. So you don't have like a bunch of keys. Yeah. So I sort of put a price on for$500 for that keyless entry, key to like, and lockbox. Yeah, thinking, okay, well, if I can get more people into the routine of that, that's what we do for all of our new management. Yes. But no one took it up.

Are We Moving Too Slowly On AI?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

Because the Airbnb doesn't when you think about you go to stand in Airbnb and they text you the code an hour or so before you arrive, or you know, to the door pad or to the lockbox or something. Like it's already happening in property management, but just a different form of property management. And you don't even have your property manager sitting in an office there, they're by their pool in their kitchen, you know, running and managing portfolios. They've got an on-the-ground team that they don't directly employ, they contract in to do work. Like it's that's run very differently to how we run PM. And maybe that's where that account manager style of role replicates what someone like Airbnb does to manage properties.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We use, um we've got a short stay department. We've just started doing partnered with made comfy. And that that's actually, yeah, that is an interesting dashboard because that's pretty good. They just tag us into, you know, if we need to arrange maintenance or tag us up, but the cleaners in that, so the cleaner gets tagged, we get, you know, all the notifications. It works. Works pretty well, actually. Yeah. And they actually handle all the funds as well. We don't even handle any of that. We just get tagged into what we need to do, and that's very task-based.

SPEAKER_01 30:01

Yeah, yeah. Which I guess it's a big habit to change if you've got a portfolio of two or three thousand properties in your office. It's a lot of change to happen. It doesn't happen overnight. You would obviously have to chip away at it slowly.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah, but that's what business owners need to get better at, chipping away slowly, yeah, staying relevant, and yeah, and just slowly moving with the time so that it's not as such an overwhelming exercise, especially if you're planning on being in the business for the next five or ten years. I think, yeah, you you just you just have to. And if you are someone like that, you can call me and speak to me, and I'll tell you what you need to do to stay relevant. Now, my last question for you is I would love to find out what are you seeing some of the best officers doing to maintain staff culture and loyalty? Is there anything impressive that you're seeing or a consistency that you're seeing?

SPEAKER_01 30:55

I think flexibility like leads the charge on this. If it's work from home, if it's flexible hours, like the demand is there. People they they want it. They don't want to work in an office all day, every day. Like some do. I can't say everyone doesn't want to, but flexibility is number one request every time we see a significant increase in interest from job applicants when there's flexibility there. And it's the difference of being able to fill a role sometimes and not being able to fill a role. I have a client at the moment that's looking to hire someone for their team. They don't offer any flexibility. I have the perfect candidate in their marketplace that wants to work from home a day a week. We could fill the role one day a week. We could fill the role, we could have it filled tomorrow. Candidates got great references, they're a culture, like everything would align. But there is a stalemate there on that. So there are situations where that is stopping people from filling roles and getting candidates over the line. So it is absolutely number one.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

Because I'm wondering whether, like, you know, from you know, the employee point of view, flexibility to them means one day a week at home, but flexibility in the mind of a business owner, they're thinking, oh, every day I'm not gonna see you. Like it leaves a bit of a like a vast idea of what flexibility looks like between the two. Yeah.

The Tech To Watch And What’s Next

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Yeah. And look, it's different for every business. I get sometimes you've got to build up that trust. And like there's a lot to it, it's not just a you know, one size fits all approach, definitely not. But it is something that is a make or break in a lot of those hiring situations at the moment. I think with probably management too is something that when I talk to candidates about this when we're going through the interview process, if I have a client that I know will actively move on a troublesome property or landlord, or they're very protective of their fee or their process or their tech and having everyone on the same page. When I communicate that to a candidate, sometimes depending upon the office they're coming out of, it's like really refreshing. You see their faces light up, like really, like someone would protect me. And if I was being given a hard time or the property was very difficult to manage, they were never repairing it, like they might consider moving it on. That can be a real game changer, too. Just knowing that there's a leader that's got like a level of standard that's going to be maintained and kept, and someone has their back.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yeah, yeah. That's good to know. I I know with with flexibility, so just speaking to people that are listening and you know do struggle with it. I you could speak to anyone in WA and know that I was dead against it. Really, yeah, not interested in flexibility. From not from a not trusting point of view, 100% I have a long, you know, long-standing team, huge trust there. Where I had the issue was on a business level, and the fact that I was so worried that sick leave and annual leave was going to accumulate too much and there'd be a liability for the business. It was purely just for that because you can imagine people saying, Oh, you know, I'm not feeling 100%, I'm gonna work from home. So we normally they might have a sick day off. That was my concern. So for us, I'm I'm totally the opposite now though. But I had to I really had to force myself to be flexible. So I guess I just want people to know that if you're not flexible, it is hard and it's very, very uncomfortable. But I just had to, and you just have to accept that that is just the way that it is now, and whether I like it, my my personal opinion of it is actually irrelevant because it's what the market wants. And so where we um draw the line now is that if the person is going to work from home potentially unwell, but uh still going to be looking after their phone and emails, then we don't dock any sick leave. But if they need to, if they're unwell enough that they need to divert their phone to me or someone else, then it's sick leave. So that's sort of the rule there. In terms of annual leave, that has also been a little bit hard with accumulation. Like to give an example, I've got someone who's over in working from Cairns at the moment, and I, you know, I have another lady that works from Singapore, you know, as she needs to, but yes, they're not here. Yes, they are working though, they have to manage their routines on either side and do all that, so that's fine. But where the value comes in as a business owner is that I've got long-term staff, and you know, the lady that goes over to Singapore and sees her family over there and works from there quite a bit. The it's either the option of me saying, Yes, you can work remotely when you need, or she will simply retire. She doesn't need a work.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

She's just take big bulks of time off, which then you've got to find coverage for in the business as well.

SPEAKER_00 36:02

Yeah. That's that's right. So it's sort of like you know, really zooming out to what it means if you don't allow it. And so, yeah, by allowing it, I've I've spent less time on recruitment, less time on having to deal with all of that, longer team, which means you know, you know, stronger retention with the clients. That's your zoomed out view. But quite often people are just so zoomed in, like I was with what about my sick leave? What about my annual leave, and not appreciating other benefits as well. So that would be my little pet talk to those that are on the fence, being a little stubborn. I I get it. I and you know what? There's this lady, I don't know if you know Michelle Riggan WA, a huge fan of her, and she was trialing the four-day work week. Yeah, and I and her and I had a really healthy, I think we did a podcast on it, and I was like, Michelle, you're killing me. Like, what's going to be next? Three days, then two days, then one day. Like, what are we creating? Like, what are you creating but doing four days? I just don't get it. And we had a really, like I said, good, healthy debate on the concerns of it. But that probably helped me work through flexibility. But also, again, you know, you're zoomed in, you zoomed in perception might be well, what if they're doing their washing or what if they go out for lunch with friends or whatever? But zoom out of that and and say to yourself, well, as a business, as long as I'm not getting complaints from clients, I'm not having to step into that portfolio. Like, it doesn't really matter how many hours they do. Like, yeah, are we not attaching the salary onto the return of that portfolio? Like, why are we being so old school and calculating hours still?

SPEAKER_01 37:51

And that's out be more outcome-spocused. Because in PM, you can run a report, you could go into any of your portfolios and run a report and see the health of that portfolio and whether or not that PM's doing their job, regardless of where they're sitting.

Keys, Access, And Short-Stay Lessons

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yeah. And then to also think to yourself, okay, like you've got someone with loads of experience. If they could do the job in 20 hours that someone else needs 40 hours, should they be penalized for that? Should they only be paid 20 hours? I mean, it's the same, it's the same job, it's the same role. It's just that they're more efficient, you know, it poses all those questions. But like I said, it is hard. And sometimes you do just have to say, you know what, it's not my personal choice. Like I guess, you know, you have personal and professional opinions. Personally, it's not my preference. My preference is that I had everyone in the office because I love the office. Why doesn't everyone else love the office? Yeah. But my professional opinion is that it actually has only had a benefit from allowing it. And yeah, really separating those two opinions, just like we do that to our landlords, you know, we say to the landlords, we've got a personal opinion, we've got a professional opinion. Have the insight to do that in your own business.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

And I think, like, actually just sitting down old school pen and paper or type of but like know all of the scenarios. What will we do if someone seeks? What do we do if someone's got the keys at their house? What would happen when someone new starts? How many and like involve the team and like hash it all that and talk through and actually like get clear in your mind of how could this play out and work? And then set an expectation of okay, if we have flexibility, this is how it works, this is how we're gonna communicate, this is what we're gonna do in these scenarios and bring everyone on that journey with you and make sure that they're crystal clear from the outset. This is where the standard expectation is with that flexibility. And if it's not working, we're gonna reassess in a month or three months' time, and we might have to make some tweaks to what we thought would work.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, well, hopefully the right people are listening to this podcast, Carly, and uh can take take some of that insight from you know someone like yourself who works all the time, full-time, with these business owners and can absolutely share those trends and myself with my own experience as well. So it's been wonderful having you on. I really appreciate your time and really appreciate your support as well with our coffee conversations over in Sydney. So if you are located in New South Wales and want to connect with Carly, where's the best place for them to do that? Would that be on Instagram?

SPEAKER_01 40:29

Yes, reach us, reach us, reach out to us on our Instagram, which is recruiting consult. Would love to chat to you. And if you do want to come to any of our coffee and conversations in Sydney on the Central Coast, we advertise them on there, so you're welcome to join.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Beautiful, yeah. And recruitment trends is such a really important part for people to always be up to date with. So you can always get your monthly update from Carly when you uh attend. Thanks, Ash. Have a good day. Thanks so much, and you too.