PM Collective - The ART of property management
The ART of property management with Ashleigh Goodchild is a leading platform supporting collaboration not competition through an online community and events throughout the year with one purpose: to create happier property managers. She creates connections for property managers looking to create momentum in their careers and personal life. Join Ashleigh and her guests as they discuss challenges, struggles, mental health, mindset and give advice to property managers and anyone in the industry. To get the support in your property management career, join our PM Collective Facebook and Instagram community.
PM Collective - The ART of property management
Why Is Your Tenant's Shower Grouting Deteriorating Faster Than Yours at Home?
Bryony from The Grout Guy takes us through the common grouting issues affecting rental properties and why proper maintenance is crucial for protecting your investment. We explore everything from identifying early warning signs to implementing preventative measures that extend bathroom life.
• Perth properties often experience accelerated shower problems due to sandy/limestone soil and rapid construction causing more movement
• Common issues include paint bubbling on adjacent walls and mold growth within grout and silicon
• Rental properties typically need regrouting every 5-7 years vs 15-20 years for owner-occupied homes due to harsh cleaning practices
• Location of wall bubbling helps diagnose the source – higher bubbling suggests plumbing issues while lower bubbling indicates grout failure
• Running your finger along grout lines to check for sandy/chalky texture is an excellent early warning detection method
• Avoid bleach and vinegar for cleaning as these accelerate grout deterioration
• Using a squeegee daily to remove moisture dramatically reduces mold growth
• pH-neutral cleaners should sit for 5 minutes before wiping to work effectively
• Applying grout sealer after professional cleaning extends grout life and represents excellent value
• Providing tenants with proper cleaning products and education significantly reduces maintenance issues
• For showers experiencing issues but not ready for full renovation, consider partial solutions like retiling just the shower base
PM COLLECTIVE - GUIDE AND SHAPE AN ENJOYABLE FUTURE
We believe in making industry-leading education and support accessible to everyone. Our community is packed with free resources, expert insights, and innovative training designed to help business owners, property managers, and BDMs thrive.
This podcast is sponsored by Property Assist.
Business owners are building their rental portfolios faster than ever and Property Managers can’t possibly do it all!
Keep your property managers doing what they love and outsource the things they don’t to a company that thrives on positive feedback and guarantees a premium personalised service
www.propertyassistwa.com.au
This podcast is kindly sponsored by Longreach
Welcome to today's podcast with the lovely Bryony from the Grout Guy. Welcome, hi, thank you, I'm actually surprised. It's been like we've not done a podcast before Me too.
Speaker 2:After all the chats over coffee and the amount we've talked about these sorts of subjects and yet we've never managed to get in front of a microphone with it.
Speaker 1:So weird, so weird. I remember when you reached out and you had mentioned sort of doing one as well, like in line with the education and maintenance series, and yeah, I was just like, oh my God, I actually really felt bad that I hadn't done that. But here we are, and today's podcast is definitely on the maintenance education which we've been doing a bit of a series for. So we've covered air cons, we've covered plumbing and now we're covering grouting. Now in Perth we have a lot of grouting issues with showers. Is that isolated for WA? I know that you guys are all around Australia, but do you find that it is an isolated WA problem or is it general everywhere?
Speaker 2:It's pretty general. I think we find it quicker here in Perth, almost like a lot of our showers aren't lasting as long because we see so much movement, because we're on sand and limestone, we're on softer materials and I think because we had such a big expansion and that want for new housing, the speed with which everything was built kind of meant that not necessarily cutting corners, but nothing had time to settle and then new grout goes in and then the property settles more and with that movement it just causes so much ongoing issues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the common questions that we'll get into today is why rental properties seem to have so many grouting issues, but yet your own home, or my own home, I've never had an issue before, so we're going to go into the answer for that. And I remember as well another I don't know whether it was you or someone else that told me with the new builds that quite often we can also see situations where tiles might've been mislaid in a property. Maybe it was the wrong style, or maybe you know it wasn't a great job and they had to remove the tiles and relay them, and that sometimes the waterproofing doesn't get done again. Yeah, and that can be something that I always have kept in mind. And then didn't we have a change of the waterproofing membrane, of the height of it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it used to only be like go up part way and now we go full. They only used to do the shower area and now the full bathroom floor is supposed to be done.
Speaker 1:So there's all these kind of different changes and rules and regs, and then older houses might not have any waterproofing at all. Yeah, interesting. So we're going to get started with the basics. So what are the most common grout leak tiling issues that you are getting called out for in rentals, and are many of them preventable or not really? Actually, let's not answer that last question, let's just go to the first one. Actually, I probably should have added that extra bit in Most common grouting leaking tiling issues, because you don't just do showers, you do other stuff as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we'll do any tiled area in the home, including balconies. At this time of year we do get a lot of balcony leaks coming in, so we can do the regrouting of those as well Obviously weather dependent for those ones, but with shower leaks, that's probably our is our most common complaint and it's what we're known for as well, because we do specialise in that. And the most common would just be people seeing paint bubbling on the wall and they're like we've got some moisture that's going through. Can you go and have a look at the grout? They might not necessarily know if it is the grout. That's the issue, but that would be our most common call out because it's the one that people notice and it's the most education out there is about the fact that you might see paint bubbling on the wall, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we see it obviously in a hallway quite often, but I've also seen it.
Speaker 2:And this is an area that PMs aren't checking but inside wardrobes Inside wardrobes, even, like if the bed is up against the wall that the bathroom's on, like en suites you'll quite often not notice it because there's like a headboard there and actually that's where you're starting to see the paint bubble and that's where I think we'll get into, like the proactivity of what we look for. But it is the most common like issue that we get called out for, and the other one would be mould.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Mould's a big question.
Speaker 1:Generally, when it gets to the mould, it's really escalated, hasn't it? Like the first step would be the bubbling and then it would get to the mould?
Speaker 2:If you're saying mould in the paint, then yeah, it's gone that far, but mould within the grout and the silicon is what we quite often get called out for as well, because I think there's a lot of fear around mold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is so much fear around mold. I've actually talked about this on another podcast and I'm pretty like casual with mold, but some tenants they've even like literally three dots. People can freak out by it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I it's. I think it depends on just kind of your background and what you've known Like, originally from the UK. Mould is something that, if you see it, you're kind of a bit nonplussed by it because it's around. Mould grows where it's moist and bathrooms are moist. So it's just a common issue that we've got to deal with and I think a lot of our education has to come down to how we maintain the area, because a lot of the time mould isn't happening because there's an issue. It's just happening because we don't know how to maintain them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely so from your perspective. What details do you wish property managers included in the maintenance requests? So property manager identifies that there is something happening. What does a good work order look like to you?
Speaker 2:Good work order to me would be the specifics of which bathroom it is. We see a lot of houses with two, three showers. Now it's a lot more common than it used to be and quite often they'll just say there's a shower leak. Well, which one Do you want us to check? All three? It makes sense to check all three, but then sometimes they're like no, this is the only one we've got the issue with. So just a bit of specificity, I'd say.
Speaker 2:And then also like if the leak that's going through, if they've noticed any issues within the shower as well, because sometimes it like the shower can look perfect, and then we go out and we're like but this looks pretty good. Like where exactly is the leak? Like we found it in the wardrobe or we found it on the wall, or we're just not sure. Can you look into it further? Just a bit of direction, because I think a lot of the time, especially if we're going into vacant properties or the tenants aren't home, we need that direction just to make it that bit quicker and easier for the property managers as well, because we don't want to go out and say this is fine or that's fine and then get sent back out again, because actually all the issue is with the other shower or something along those lines.
Speaker 1:And is it helpful to have photos of the shower, recess and the bubbling or, generally, is it one more important than the other?
Speaker 2:Yeah, both. The shower is probably less important because we're going to inspect it anyway. Photos of the bubbling is going to be great, because then it just kind of gives us a quick like this is what we're going to see. We'll quite often take our own photos as well, so it's not the majorest of jammers if we don't get it, but we do like a bit of everything really.
Speaker 1:Would it be helpful for property managers to be identifying if there is cracked tiles? Identifying if there is cracked tiles, and is that something that you guys could still look at? Or if there's cracked tiles? It's like you know what this is actually going to be a tiling job and getting a tiling quote and is that something you guys do or refer?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we do do tiling, so we're more than happy to have a look at that. If there's one you're specifically worried about, it is a good idea to just mention it, especially if it's outside of the shower itself, like, oh actually there's some cracked tiles in the bathroom, can you have a look at those? They can quite often not always, but they can quite often point to a larger issue at hand. So it kind of just gives us that pre-prep of like we might be quoting for more and we can kind of give that warning as well, because I think sometimes, especially for investors, it can be a bit of a shock when they send us in for a shower, like can we come back with a? Well, we need to retail the bathroom.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was just thinking that, that as a property manager, yeah, telling the owner that there is a chance that it does need to be retailed. Because, yeah, I can imagine that situation and I think that we've actually been in a situation before where you know, you tell the owner we're going to get a quote for the regrouting. You know, just throwing out just don't quote me on this but you're throwing out a random price of, say, $1,500 for a shower regrout and then a quote to come back for $8,000, hypothetically, and the owner will be like, why is the quote for $8,000? I can get it cheap. And it's like, well, hold on, you haven't actually probably read it properly. Yeah, it's actually retiling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that has happened, and that's happened to us a lot as well. And we do try and pre-warn but sometimes you just don't know until you're out there looking at it. So, saying that there's a few cracked tiles, we can probably straight to like look, it's going to be a bit more expensive than our standard quote because we're going to be doing that extra bit of work and with replacement of tiles and things, there's a whole bunch of extra stuff that goes into that. So it does affect the pricing quite considerably.
Speaker 1:Yeah, is there anything that because I think a lot of property managers go down the road of? Do I get a quote for the grouting? Do I send out a plumber? There's some water? How do we troubleshoot who needs to go out first, who needs to check first? Are there any signs that would indicate that we should maybe get the plumber out first before you, or vice versa?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it is quite difficult to tell with moisture, because moisture is going to take the easiest route. So sometimes a leak can be further up but the damage is going to be down on the bottom of the wall sort of thing. But generally a safe kind of point to go for is if you've got paint bubbling and it's at the height of the taps or higher, you're going to be looking at a pipe because most of the time that's a slow leak from the back of the pipe work, Whereas with grout it's going to get behind those tiles and it's just going to shoot straight down to the bottom. So you're going to get more of that bubbling down the base of the shower and then maybe that dampness rising as we go along Rising as we go.
Speaker 2:So and obviously it depends on the extent of the issue we will try and say if we feel that the moisture is a bit higher than we would expect for the issues within the shower, we'll say we recommend getting a plumber out. I think it's always a good idea, especially with older properties, to just get the pipes pressure tested Because even if we don't see an issue there before we go and put lovely new grout and tiles in, if we just have those pipes pressure tested, we can kind of go in with a bit more certainty that we're not going to get issues down the track because we can't guarantee the pipe work unless you've had a plumber have a look at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's sometimes a hard conversation for property managers to have, because they're potentially getting a plumber out there who's not going to find an issue and, like, we always want an issue to be found so we can justify the cost of a plumber's call out.
Speaker 1:And so, yeah, really, that education to an owner to make it clear listen, this is the steps we follow. There is a good chance that the plumber will go out and confirm that there's no leaks, which is a good sign and a good result, because then it means that we know that we've got to get the grout guy out to do their quote. And just prepping them because, yeah, you wouldn't, I guess, as a property manager, maybe as more of a junior, to say I need to get the plumber out and then an owner to scream at you well, there's nothing wrong with the plumbing, now I've got a plumbing bill. It's a different conversation and I think yeah, I think in teams need to get a little bit more confident with why they explain to the owner why we're going to get the plumber out first.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think for a lot of investors there's not a lot of education around what's involved, because when they do it for their own house, they're seeing everything happening. And I think again, with tenant properties, as we touched on before, we do see a higher degradation of the grout, which kind of causes this knock-on effect of like why am I having to do all these things under this bathroom, in this property that I don't even live in? So I think, just yeah, that education standpoint, and the more information we can give, obviously the better. So we do try and put it into everything we send, but obviously you can't guarantee they're going to read it.
Speaker 1:no, no what is, and I don't know if they're, if you know the um time frame for this, but is there a time frame behind um, like how long it takes for the bubbling to show on the wall? Is it something where it might start showing within weeks, months, years? Like how long has that grouting been an issue before we're physically seeing it?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think that's really case dependent. Dependent because it depends on the materials that the house is built out of, depends on the paint that was used, because you do have paints that are going to weather it better than others. Generally speaking, it's going to have been going for a longer period of time because it's got to get through the wall and concrete can take quite a lot of moisture before it starts kind of exposing on the other side. I would say, just as a general rule of thumb, you've probably had that leak for like a couple months. It's not going to happen overnight.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Now, I love the conversations around why rental properties have more grouting issues than your own, owner-occupied, and you have explained it so well in the past for me, so I'm going to let you explain what you're noticing with the rental properties and why. Because I guarantee that nearly all property managers have had a call from an owner to say why does my rental property always need regrouting? Or you know each one. Obviously they don't need regrouting more than once, really, but yeah, that's definitely a question that owners ask me all the time, so I'll let you explain.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely so. We have talked about this a fair amount of time. Yeah, with tenanted properties, your vacate cleans and the products that are being used is a very, very large factor. I don't think we think about that as homeowners that are living in our own properties, because we use like one type of cleaner and, generally speaking, our maintenance is a bit gentler.
Speaker 2:When we get our vacate cleans, we're going in with harsh products, we're trying to make it look as best as possible, but the problem is is we're then wearing down our grout, we're scrubbing at it, we're using harsh chemicals to try and make it look the best we can and remove any staining and that over time, just starts eating away at that grout and then the more more we eat away at the grout, the more mold and staining it gets.
Speaker 2:We then go in for another vacate clean and we just get this compounding issue. And that's where we're finding a lot of these are coming in the properties that, like you know, a homeowner occupied could potentially last 15, 20 plus years before it needs re-grouting. These tenanted properties are like five to seven and we're just having to go in and unfortunately it's just the nature of cleaning and we do see a lot of things like bleach and vinegar, which obviously we advise not to use. But especially when mould is such a large fear, a lot of people are going in with those harsh chemicals and it's just stripping back that grout and making it 10 times worse.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and also the routine inspections making it 10 times worse yeah, and also the routine inspections. And I mean I love a good bleach smell and so I do want my house to smell like bleach. Especially if I was having a property manager come through, I want them to smell that it's clean. So routine inspections, final inspections, potentially people like you said, scrubbing them intensely for those moments and those checks is what we're seeing and maybe just not doing it on a regular basis, potentially.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think it's quite. We have a bit of a panic culture around property managers coming in to have a look and there's definitely tenants going a bit overboard with it, which I understand from their point of view. But also they are quite often just causing damage because they're just scrubbing at it so harshly and as much as we want it to, it is a longer lasting product, the more they scrub at it, the more damage they're going to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you and I should have really, like it's so obvious when you had told me this, but the, the mould, how mold only grows, I think, like when the area is wet, and so a lot of people have the squeegees, and like I see squeegees in people's bathrooms. I personally had never used one before because I didn't understand it. But when you told that to me I was like that makes so much sense. There are so many people out there having showers not squeegeeing, not removing any moisture or anything like that, not drying down the shower recess, but you were saying that that is like one easy way to prevent mould Massively easy way to prevent mould because, again, mould grows where it's wet.
Speaker 2:It's not going to grow where it's bone dry, because mould needs that moisture. So if we're drying out the shower, we're just using it as a nice little preventative. And especially during the winter, when we have lots of condensation, water does pool and you're just getting this nice little environment for the mould to grow and it's just going to keep on blooming. So if you can dry that shower, we've got to be realistic. No one's going to do it after every shower, but even once a day like that in itself is going to make a massive difference over the life of that bathroom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that would definitely be something good for people to remember the products that we're using. So you know. You mentioned vinegar and bleach not a great option. What is Bryony using in her shower?
Speaker 2:So I'm actually very on company. I'm using the Grout Guy Grout Clean, right, but anything pH neutral. So what we don't want to be using is our acids and things that are very abrasive. So you've got those cleaners with nice little granules in. It makes us feel really good but it's not going to make your grout feel very good because you're just going to be peeling away layers of grout.
Speaker 2:So if we can go pH neutral and I think one thing we forget with cleaners is they've got to sit on the surface to work. And it's funny and so many people I talk to I'm like so you spray on your cleaner and let it sit for five minutes. Okay, let it just sit there and kind of do its job for a little bit before we start wiping it away. Because what we're not by just spraying it on and scrubbing it off, we're not letting it actually take the time to work. So if we can just spray it on, let it sit for five minutes and then go in with a nice cloth and wipe it off, you'll see a lot better results than just spraying it on and scrubbing it off straight away. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1:I haven't heard you say that that's a great tip. Yeah, I don't clean. I'll tell my cleaner, though I'm pretty certain my cleaner's got one of those machines with the scrubbing and I can hear it in the shower and it's going against all the grout guys' ethics, but it makes it look pretty it does. However, do you know what I actually interesting enough, in that shower? I've noticed, though the people prior must have done like a bit of a grout paint or something, because I have now noticed patches of dark blue grout. Don't ask me why. It's like a pale blue tile. They've done a dark blue grout and I'm seeing that come through, and not that nice white.
Speaker 1:So I think at some stage I'm going to once she's finished scrubbing the rest of it off over the next 12 months, I will need you guys to go out and do that for me and do some nice white grout for you. Absolutely yeah. How do I like this might sound like a simple thing, but it's not something I've noticed at the shops. I'm going to go to Coles, do my shopping and I'm going to buy a shower cleaner. Do they actually say on the bottle what the pH is?
Speaker 2:Some will. Some will say pH neutral or pH balanced Okay, but quite often we have to look at the kind of product on the back. So you just want to be avoiding anything with. Bleach is often in those cleaners, they'll use it as part of it or ammonia. If we can kind of avoid those, you're going to be doing like a lot of good Quite often, as like a general rule of thumb if it's environmentally safe, it's going to be your better one, yeah. And obviously, again, looking away from things that have lots of acid in there, yeah, but unfortunately not all products do so. If you can find one that says it, it's the best way to go.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you talked about a product that you've got which is the cleaner. Then you we've spoken before about a seal, a can of sealer, and I haven't done this, but I have very good intentions of doing it in my business because I feel like it's a really good value add and that was what we were talking about. With a tenant's just vacated a property, They've had a beautiful professional clean. You're doing the final inspection. It looks great. The potential of getting the grout guy sealer and spraying that shower for the next tenant, I think it's a great idea. I think it's a really good value add for property managers to do. It's going to protect their owner's investment for a very sort of low cost and while it's not necessarily, you know, a forever permanent protection, it's definitely going to prolong any issues that you might get with it. Can you talk to us a bit more about that sealer? Yeah and yeah, and a can of that.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think you're exactly right. It will extend the life of the grout. That's pre-existing and I think if the grout's in really good condition already, it's just a way to preserve it and extend the life. So the sealer, what it does, is it basically forms a little barrier and fills in some of the pores in the grout and what that helps is with the water it just kind of flows off rather than sitting in those little pores there. It's going to reduce your mould growth, which is going to reduce the scrubbing, and it's also going to help reduce staining and things like that. So it's just, it's kind of, in a way, it's just making it easier to clean, which means that we're being less rough with the grout and it kind of prolongs that sort of thing. I love it. I have it on all the tiled areas in my house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think as well, like we talk a lot about tenant gifts and things like that. You know, of course, if you were to spray that and I would recommend it after a beautiful professional clean we're not doing it on semi-dirty showers, but in those situations and if you were to do a tenant pack and having that cleaner, I think would be really great as well, because it encourages tenants to use or even just having that conversation with tenants to say, listen, just so you know, before you moved in, I did a spray with a sealant, so it's going to make it nice and easy to clean your shower, and this is the product we recommend just to make your life easier with mould and cleaning as well, like just educating the tenants.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot of it's around education. A lot of people don't know. We see it a lot with, like, the ventilation of the bathrooms as well, like simple changes like leaving the door open or leaving the fan on after a shower are going to reduce that water, which is going to reduce that mold, and it's that little circle of like just making everything that bit easier. And I think quite often they think like they see mold and it's we didn't do it, it's not our fault, which it probably isn't it's probably just all those little things that you could be doing that would help reduce that. That would then mean that you don't get worried about the mold growth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and I think as well, like from a value add for your clients. You don't even need to make a big drama about it. But imagine sort of calling up an owner and saying, hey, I've just done your final inspection. While I was there, I did a coat of sealant on your shower because it was looking so beautiful and a great product and it's just there to protect. So I've done a few little things like that around the house for you as well, to protect your property. Just even saying that, I think as an investor, I would be like absolutely delighted that someone did that Absolutely, I think it would make a huge difference.
Speaker 2:And as well you know that they're trying to protect the grout and save you money in the long run, because I think, having that added protection, we're being proactive, we're not letting it get bad and then having to do a full strip out and things like that we can actually just reduce the need for maintenance, which I think is a massive part of being a property manager as well, because you have to deal with all the maintenance that then follows.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what these podcast series are about getting confident with the maintenance, understanding it, working out what you can do proactively, bringing that into your maintenance plan and saying to the owner okay, last time you know, I did a sealant spray, you know in you know 18 months ago, I'm going to do another one for you. I mean you could choose to charge the owner for the cost of a can, which is not expensive, or you can just do it as your value add. Just having ideas like that for property managers to listen to, I think, is just really, really good for them to bring into their business. Now I put on a question down here and it's just for a curiosity point of view Is there such thing as urgent, like as an urgent grouting quote, or not? Like, do you get people say this is urgent, it needs to be done straight away, and is that a thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I'd say there's cases where there is urgency.
Speaker 2:I'd say they're a lot less than people think, because the nature of grout leaks is they are quite slow, so by the point we get called in they've probably been leaking for months, potentially years. So that extra week isn't going to be the be all and end all. When you start getting tiles falling off the wall, I'd say there's definitely an urgency there, because as tiles come off the wall they're taking the substrate with and then they're just opening up the back for even more issues, whereas the tiles themselves have a certain amount of waterproofing that's going to reduce water ingress anyway. So I think for those jobs where you do have we have had calls where tiles have popped off the wall and the tenant's gone we need someone out here I can definitely say that they'd need to be labelled as urgent, because we do want to get out there before more tiles start falling off or breaking or we can cause ongoing issues. But I'd say for most general leaks where there's paint bubbling, a week or two is not going to make a massive difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, excellent. Have you had any complicated or tricky jobs or stories that you're able to share, just for my own entertainment?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, we've probably got a few different ones. I think it's the nature of any trade where you deal with a lot of both weird and distressing ones for some people, especially when there's only one bathroom in the house. So we had one where the plumber had gone out and done a preliminary check, said that there was no issues with plumbing, can you go out and re-grout? So we went out and re-grouted and about six months later the floor underneath the shower fell through. So they had water casks gating into their kitchen and they're like but you regretted it, it should have been fixed. It turned out that there was a pipe that wasn't connected to the shower but ran under the shower floor that was in the same area, so it looked like the shower was leaking, but actually there was another pipe and it had caused degradation underneath and it all just fell through and of course, distressed tenants, distressed property manager, distressed investor, but unfortunately we'd actually done the right thing, but then obviously it took the shower floor with it.
Speaker 2:So that became an interesting one, because trying to explain that when you have done works on a property is really difficult.
Speaker 2:And luckily the plumber went back out, went no, I missed it and you know it became a conversation and I think quite often we do, unfortunately, as the trades, we just get not blamed, but we do get misunderstood with that and there's kind of a bit of an old school view around trades of like you get your trustworthy and your untrustworthy, and I think we need to remember that sometimes just the issues happen and it's not always connected, but because you were the most recent trade in, that happens, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And we had one where we did do the shower and there was a crack in the grout but we weren't alerted to it and we got called out to fix it up about a year later and there was damages to the back of the wall and the property manager said to us the owner wants you to pay for the damages. And we were like, well, if we'd been alerted to the issue about a year ago, when it probably first started happening, we could have fixed it and there wouldn't have been any damages. So why are we now liable? And it became a really difficult conversation to have and I actually felt really bad for the property manager in that regard because she was obviously copying it from the investor and then she was just being the middleman and it became a very interesting conversation around education of if we'd been called out earlier, we would have fixed it under warranty either way, but you just would have avoided that damage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, and I mean you mentioned before that sometimes just crap, things do just happen. And at our coffee catch up we just had earlier one of the girls we were talking about tiles on roofs and she was saying how just a random tile had moved. And I said to her actually I've had a rental property where that's happened. There's been no tradies, no nothing, and just randomly a tile has slipped. And I actually had to go to the extent with an owner of going back to the day, like because we had tradies sort of before and after, and so I could pinpoint when this leak in the ceiling had happened. And I had to go back to like the 13th of May, find out what the wind speed was which you can actually find out, did you know? And then, and then I was, which you can actually find out, did you know? And then I had to go and find out at what speed does wind have to be for a tile to be dislodged, which it wasn't at that speed.
Speaker 1:It was just like such investigating work and I actually didn't have any answer to the owner, I just had to go to him and say you know what? I think it's just bad luck. I think it just moved. I don't have any answers for you. Yeah, there's, it's just bad luck. I think it just moved. I don't have any answers for you. Yeah, there's nothing more than bad luck.
Speaker 2:Sometimes things just happen, just happen, unfortunately, and it is quite often it's funny. It's not something I experienced before. I worked in a trade. Quite often it's, but you were the last person there. Just because you're the last person there doesn't mean it's something you've done, but it means that you have to cover yourself. And that's one of the reasons we take photos of everything and we keep such a strict history because we want to be able to be like look, we're really sorry this happened, but in the end we've covered ourselves, sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. I think all trades need to. And saying that, all property managers need to make sure they take lots of photos, and you know we talked about the you know damage or bubbling or mold behind a bed or in a wardrobe, so things like that taking extra photos so that you don't have a situation where a landlord goes well, why didn't you check that? So we had. I had written down a like a bit of a cheat sheet for property managers. What are things that you would say would be helpful to maybe identify? If there was any shower grounding issues?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a really simple one that I don't think people talk about very often is just running your finger down the groundout and having a look at your finger if it comes away really sandy. You've got potential, though the grout's just getting old and it's starting to come away. So that would be one where I would be like look, the shower looks fine, but I'm getting sand on my finger. The grout's coming away. There's potentially an issue there like chalky chalk, yeah, yeah. So that would be one that I'd kind of be like. If we get someone out to do moisture readings then and check the condition of the grout, that's got a bit more experience and can have a look, if that could potentially avoid the follow-on issues of cracking, waterproofing issues and leaking causing damage and I think a lot of the time we are waiting for the leak to show on the other side. So if we can be proactive with that, it would be massive.
Speaker 2:Checking around the drain that's quite often because it's where we get all the water floods down to the drain. So if we're going to get the issues, they're going to start there. If you've got an issue around your drain like a piece of grout's come out or something like that again. Get someone in to check that can give you a professional opinion, because if it's starting around the drain, that's where the worst of it's going to be, but that could potentially mean that you're going to have a larger area. That's going to start doing that. Just small things like that, like looking for the little things, that small hole oh, it's only one small hole, but is it? Because if it's starting to go there, it could be going on the other side and you just can't see it yet.
Speaker 1:So all those little, little, tiny things can add up and it's interesting, like when you were talking about that, I was just thinking of the number of property managers that do their routine inspections and are there to potentially check cleanliness and tenants' livability, I guess, of how they're looking after the property but not physically looking at maintenance as such. So, for example, in a bathroom you just have a quick scan of the bathroom. Bathroom looks clean, looks good, but are and yes tenants keeping it clean and tidy. But are you doing something as simple as that which makes sense, like actually looking for the maintenance and then bringing that into that whole proactive maintenance plan? And even if you said to an owner listen, it's January, I think that you know, I've noticed this, I think it's something we should consider doing before tax time, and you and the owner might go listen, I don't have the funds, but let's book it in for April, for example.
Speaker 1:And it's like that would be much better for the owner to be in control of the maintenance coming up than being told you've got to get this done and it's you know, you've got to make a decision and then feeling pressured. Because I feel like that's where owners get upset with maintenance when they're under pressure to spend money and they're not planning it as part of the journey of the investment property. I feel like that's the thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I think with the leak issue again, when you come to the point of it's really damaged, investors have a tendency to panic because it's not just the one thing they're having to get fixed. They're having to worry about the plaster and the paint and the carpets and all these things, whereas if you are being that little bit proactive, saying, look, I've got an issue that looks like it's starting, can we just get it checked? If there's an issue, we can look at getting it fixed. But it feels less urgent because we're not seeing all these damages coming through. And if the moisture levels are just starting to creep up, but they're not really bad, look, that could potentially wait a little while, but at least we know it's coming and we can start saving for it and start thinking about it in the future?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly Now I don't know if you are happy to answer this question, but last question for you You've got a bathroom which is old and probably should have a renovation anyway, but the owner doesn't want to spend $20,000 on a renovation. But we've got a shower that really needs regrouting and now we're having conversations with the owner about whether it's worth spending the money on a regrout or whether they should put the money towards doing the whole bathroom. What do you have any recommendations for property managers with that discussion? Any temporary options? They've got to prolong that bathroom, maybe just for another year, before the owner does the rentals or sells the property. What's your thoughts around that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a really case-by-case basis, so it is a hard one to answer, but I'll give it a go Because of course, you're going to say you should be getting the grouting done.
Speaker 2:You should be getting a re-grout, because of course I want to. You know that's my job, that's right. But I think with that one it's a really candid conversation with your owner. If a shower is experiencing leaks and we don't want to renovate now but we're looking at it in a year, re-grouting is going to have to be a potential because that leak is going to be causing damages on the other wall and, as much as water isn't as scary as, say, a fire, it still can do a lot in a short space of time if it's not being addressed.
Speaker 2:But if you've only got light moisture readings in a wall and the grout just looks a bit shoddy and you really again, you're looking at renovations in a year, then potentially you could look at just putting some fresh silicon in, doing a nice spray sealer and just keeping an eye on it Because it's not causing any major damage. You might just get away with it. I think it's one of those things where it would be a matter of getting someone out that's got a professional eye, getting them to do some moisture readings and just check it over and having a really candid conversation with the owner, even if that means they talk to the assessor themselves or the property manager gets all the information and passes it on, because with damage, you can potentially rack up so much more costs than you even know. Yeah, because if it gets into gyprock it can spread like wildfire.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay. So you know it's not going to solve the problem. It may not even work, but maybe a reseal, depending on the case and the silicon. And the other option I was just thinking as well is like, depending on the bathroom, maybe look at just retiling, for example, the shower recess, so then that's done, and then maybe the owner does the vanity and the rest of the bathroom later on, when there's more funds and just sort of dividing up the reno as such, and maybe change it to more of a refurbishment of the path through.
Speaker 2:And we see that a lot as well where people will just get us in to do even just like can you retile the shower base, because that's the worst of it and just re-grout the walls and then we'll get the walls done later. I think people forget with tiling you don't have to get it all done at once. There is, if you're using the same tiles there. There is a certain level of flexibility with it. And I think people get quite intimidated by the word renovation. Yeah, where a renovation doesn't have to happen all at once, you can do it bit by bit, especially for keeping the same floor plan. So I think it's again, it's largely just a conversation with the owner and what they're willing to do, but I do think an amount of education of how much damage water can cause needs to be out there more.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just thought of sorry. One more question.
Speaker 2:No, of course.
Speaker 1:It's only because I know there's property managers that will have this. Tell us about shower recesses that have been painted. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Insert eye roll. Yes, yeah, insert eye roll Paint in a shower. Paint isn't designed to be wet. Yeah, no matter the advertising behind it. And it may look really pretty to start, but it goes bad really quickly. So we see it where we get called in. It's been painted and they want us to re-grout. We can, but it's going to chip all that paint. If you've painted the tiles, pretty much the only course of action from there is to re-tile. Okay, Because you're just going to get more and more issues and it can hide a lot of issues behind as well, because it's just adding a layer. Basically we're just adding a coating that's then covering up anything that's happening behind, so it just doesn't look good in the long run. But it also just causes extra maintenance. So if we go in and we quote for a shower that has paint on it, we will advise it's not going to look good, as much as it's going to be resealed. You're going to have chunks of paint coming off.
Speaker 1:And there's nothing we can do to stop that, because it's just the nature of paint when it gets wet. Yeah, okay, and the only reason I thought of that was because I was like, oh, could you just paint the tiles.
Speaker 2:But it's not really the recommendation we want to give out, it's not and if we've gone in and re-grouted and you paint the tiles, yeah, you're avoiding our warranty. Yeah, okay, that's good to know as well. Yeah, and and it's one that people, I think, quite often don't think of they go why, why would that do that? But you're adding another product on top of ours that can be trapping moisture behind. It can chip, it can just not look good and it can also just cause this ongoing issues, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Amazing. Thank you so much. It's an area that I just feel like because it's how do I explain it? It's a maintenance item that doesn't have a lot of education. Owners don't understand it because they're not generally getting it in their property. It's not like just a simple plumbing electrical issue. You know what I mean. It's something that becoming for property managers to be a little bit more comfortable and understand the situation is important so that they can have that confidence going to the owner, because it's not a hundred dollar invoice, you know what I mean. It's a cost that has to be done and it has to be done properly, and so therefore there's a need to be educated even more on it. You know, when explaining to the owner why they need to get it done.
Speaker 1:So you've been incredibly helpful and I hope I have answered a lot of questions that property managers that are listening to have with regards to it. But at any point, if there's questions that I've missed, you can reach out to me. Reach out to Bryony at the Grout Guy directly and she'll be very happy to answer or even sort of coming into your office to talk about any questions that your team might have. I know that you've got BDMs scattered around Australia as well, so, regardless of where you are, do just reach out if you need any more support, and we'll be happy to put you in touch, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you.
