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PM Collective - The ART of property management
The ART of property management with Ashleigh Goodchild is a leading platform supporting collaboration not competition through an online community and events throughout the year with one purpose: to create happier property managers. She creates connections for property managers looking to create momentum in their careers and personal life. Join Ashleigh and her guests as they discuss challenges, struggles, mental health, mindset and give advice to property managers and anyone in the industry. To get the support in your property management career, join our PM Collective Facebook and Instagram community.
PM Collective - The ART of property management
Breaking Free from Controlling Behaviors in Real Estate Business
Shannon from Property Assist joins us to explore how controlling behaviors in property management businesses can limit growth and create unnecessary stress for both owners and teams.
• Shannon's outsourcing business has expanded to Adelaide, Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane, Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast, and Perth
• Controlling behavior often stems from high standards and unwillingness to try different approaches
• Team members with controlling tendencies typically feel stressed and overwhelmed
• Self-reflection is key to identifying if you're exhibiting controlling behaviors
• The difference between caring and controlling is important to understand in business relationships
• Property managers who are controlling with office processes are likely being controlling with clients too
• Different generations approach tasks differently but can still achieve the same results
• Trusting team members to make decisions empowers them and enhances their perceived value to clients
• Every business will have costs associated with mistakes - budget for these rather than creating a blame culture
• Business owners should focus on outcomes rather than micromanaging the journey
• Approach team support from underneath by asking "what do you need?" rather than demanding from above
If you need outsourcing solutions anywhere in Australia, reach out to Shannon and the Property Assist team, even if they're not yet operating in your specific area - they're always looking to expand.
PM COLLECTIVE - GUIDE AND SHAPE AN ENJOYABLE FUTURE
We believe in making industry-leading education and support accessible to everyone. Our community is packed with free resources, expert insights, and innovative training designed to help business owners, property managers, and BDMs thrive.
This podcast is kindly sponsored by The Efficiency Co.
We are a dedicated consultancy, training, and support partner for innovative real estate organisations.
Specialising in agency operations, team development and technology integration, we provide the insight, support, and training to maximise your performance.
Our toolbox includes 1:1 Coaching for industry pros, 1:1 Personal Strategy Sessions, Team Engagement Workshops and Bespoke Agency Consultation
So today we have someone that everyone knows and loves Shannon from Property Assist. Welcome Thanks, Ash. You're becoming an Australia-wide name now. Oh gosh, I appreciate that. I actually had a call from someone yesterday, over in Queensland actually, and they were looking for someone. So I gave them your details and suggested to them reach out. So Shannon from Property Assist does outsourcing. For those that don't know when are you based now, I always say all over Australia, but whereabouts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we're through, obviously, adelaide, melbourne, sydney, brisbane, gold Coast, sunshine Coast and Perth. Have I missed anywhere? Yeah, basically the bigger areas. Yeah, not in Tassie yet we had a request for Tassie the other day, but it's just a matter of finding someone and getting them started. So it's not like a no, but that's anywhere. Really Like we're looking for people on Central Coast because we've got, you know, people reaching out to us there but we actually can't find anyone in Central Coast. We've had an add-up for like six weeks now and just, you know, obviously it's an entry-level role, becoming an inspector. So yeah, it's hard finding the right person to obviously then make the business viable to go there, essentially.
Speaker 1:But yeah, we'll go anywhere. I did a Darwin investor webinar yesterday and they're having a big influx of investors and so Kirsty, who I was speaking to, has gone from gosh. I think she said something like 80 properties under management to 200. And we were talking about like her staffing situation and I was like you need outsourcing in Darwin. So I was like that's probably the last place you're thinking of it, but I mean, that's it.
Speaker 2:It's just about finding the person right to jump on the team. Like we've got the onboarding, we've got the training, everything's done, like we can do it. It's just rinse and repeat for us, but it's just finding that right person that's going to actually, you know, enjoy the role and stick with us essentially, and I think that's just it's all part of scaling and growing finding the team to do it. And because we are so, you know, physical team based, we're not just, you know, take something on online or insert product here. Yeah, it's like we need feet and toes on the ground and that's the hardest part Now, not that this was a little business console, but maybe that's what you need to do.
Speaker 1:Maybe instead of like I mean, this goes for all, actually this could go for all businesses. So instead of actually like finding the location and then finding the people, finding the people and then going okay, that's where we'll start, well, that's where.
Speaker 2:That's how we started the expansion. Yeah, so, because we didn't have a great. We originally wanted to start in Sydney, but we couldn't find anybody. So then we put an ad up in every single state and then we interviewed everybody that came through. That was obviously applicable and then, yeah, we actually started in Adelaide. That was where our first inspector came on board was because they were great and they felt right and we started in Adelaide and then we went from there. So that's exactly what we did we put ads in everywhere and then we went from there.
Speaker 1:So that's exactly what we did. We put ads in everywhere, yeah, excellent. I often talk about this from a BDM point of view, where quite often we're chasing the owner to then have the property. And it's like what if you found the property and then found an owner? And when we do property profiling I used to do that, where I would just have a weekend free I'd go find a property that I thought would make a really good investment property, and then I would put that property into my WhatsApp group and say, hey, I've just checked this property. I think it'd make a great investment. This is what they're wanting. This is a price. You know, are there any investors that are interested in buying it? And it was like in reverse, but it sort of works.
Speaker 2:It works Well. I did that with my investment property, with yours. Do you have any buyers? Is there someone out there? And yeah, we had a call. I think off that anyway, but yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:And that one's all sold and settled. Now it is yeah, sweet, I've just sold my place in Gilderton.
Speaker 2:So yeah, just a little one.
Speaker 1:So that's good to get that sorted. We've got the finance approval still, but that should come through this week and then, yeah, settle. So it's always nerve wracking when you're doing real estate transactions, like on your own. Like don't you find Like I had to consult with, I had to consult with like a local agent? I was like I can't even price it myself.
Speaker 2:No, like I could if I had to, but I don't, I feel too emotional. Yeah, I had a figure in mind and I mean God, we were like $5,000 off that. So I was pretty stoked with that anyway. But yeah, I did hire an agent to do it, to sell it. But yeah, it was you have to, I think, to have that detachment from it. Yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:Now we were going to talk about controlling behavior, but as business owners we've got, I guess what I want to talk about is where controlling cannot serve us and controlling can be causing problems in our business. So and I don't I think it's an interesting topic because I actually don't think people realize that they are controlling yeah, and if you said, hey, you're being controlling, they're going to be like, no, I'm not, yeah, and it's like, well, yeah, you are. It's like one of those things that everyone else around you knows and feels, but you don't.
Speaker 1:So I was like how can we sort of talk about this?
Speaker 1:So maybe people could like self-reflect a little bit and go oh maybe I am a little bit and, you know, is it serving me? So that was like the idea behind this topic, because I've spoken to a few business owners in the past where I've actually had to say to them do you think you're the problem here? Like there's a point where there's a common denominator and it's a tough discussion to have denominator and it's a tough discussion to have, and the thing is is with bosses and managers that the team don't want to have that conversation and say that to you. So this is sort of what we want to talk about. So what I want to speak to you about, as a business owner, but also someone who's got experience with dealing with lots of businesses, is what do you see controlling people, and it actually doesn't even have to be bosses. This is property managers as well.
Speaker 1:What do you see? What does a controlling person in property management look like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they essentially they would be stressed, they don't want to let things go so because they just don't feel that someone else will do it the same way that they'll do it. But I guess that's sort of what they look like, really, don't they at the end of the day? I think it's that stress and that emotion and that sort of thing. If you allow someone to take control of a task, then surely that stress and emotion can reduce, as long as you've trained that person correctly and that person's taking it on. I guess Is that sort of what you're going to say as well.
Speaker 1:I guess the one thing that I find is that people that are controlling are putting their standards quite high. Yeah, okay, Don't you find as well Like they've got like high standards?
Speaker 2:Well it's just that way and there's possibly no other way that it can be done. Like that's probably. Yeah, obviously the standard is there, but they're not open to doing it a different way as well and hearing from somebody else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and being probably stubborn in that sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we, we had a really great coffee catch up the other day with business owners and and no one there by any means was from a controlling point of view.
Speaker 1:But it was definitely something that I noticed that when we went around the table and talked about a problem that they were having with recruitment, for example, that people automatically went to that one solution, like, oh, I can't find a property manager, or I can't find a BDM, for example, and it's like, okay, well, if you can't like, what's the next option? And I think people just go in with blinkers on and say, well, that's my one solution, which I'm not suggesting that these people in any point were like controlling of, oh, that's the only option, but they were just thinking of that and I was like, okay, well, if you can't find a property manager, what's the next option? And so, okay, well, well, maybe the next option could be that you do have to go down that road of outsourcing or um, down that road of, um, remote professionals, yeah, uh, and so getting them to look at that, but I guess the difference between people that have got that controlling behavior would probably go. Well, that's not an option.
Speaker 2:I can't afford it, yeah, and have an excuse. Yeah. I think it's change mindset as well, though, right, like people have to be willing to change what they know, what they used, to be open to other ideas. So I think the more they're in that mindset, the easier it is to be less controlling. Really, isn't it Like if you can't control the property manager to stay, and they've got an idea on a way to do something different, like listen to them, hear what they have to say? I think that sort of is that change for people, which is really hard, and that's how they then become controlling if they're not open to it.
Speaker 1:And maybe that's a good exercise for people to self-reflect, like when was the last time that one of your colleagues had suggested something to you and you said you know what, let's give that a go. Yeah, and if you can't remember the last time that you've done that, then you might want to put a little you know cross next to that one and maybe challenge yourself to say next time someone comes to me with an idea, I might just embrace it, just say yes, and see what happens.
Speaker 2:Have a team meeting and ask them if they want to change any of their processes.
Speaker 2:That they've got going on in the business and you'll probably be super surprised at how much incredible feedback you'd get from people. Because I think, at the end of the day, like we all talk about efficiencies and stuff like that, but with tech and everything that's around now, I think majority of the people genuinely want to get things done faster. So if they can let go of processes or they can change a process to be more efficient, like it's only going to benefit everybody in the business, really, isn't it? Like I think, yeah, and then. But that's obviously allowing that conversation to happen at the start and asking that I do that all the time with our staff. Like we, yeah, if there's anything, any sort of process, whether it's from our VAs, offshore or whether it's an inspector, we consistently say if you think there's some way of doing something differently that's going to be more efficient or more you know that's going to receive a better outcome, then please just speak up and let us know Like we'll change it A hundred percent You've got to be open to that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's I think as well, like now that I think about it more.
Speaker 2:It's about saying yeah, yes more, and no, like if no, no, it's not really in my vocab, like I don't really say no, which is also a problem in a different sense, but in a business sense I don't really say no, yeah, everything's yes, or like yes, let's trial it, and if it doesn't work, then the whole team has buy-in on that as to why it doesn't work, rather than it just stopping with the controlling person saying no, like you give the team the opportunity to give that a go, essentially, and if it doesn't work they'll be like oh well, you know, I thought it would, but you know, at least we got to give it a go.
Speaker 1:And, as a controlling person, definitely not doing that whole. I knew that it wouldn't work. If you've ever said that in your life oh no, you are controlling and you need to. Yeah, go do something about that. That happens a lot.
Speaker 2:Like yeah, there'll be things that you know I won't love what the situation is, or like the change is, but I'll let it happen. I definitely don't respond to that. I'll kind of leave it as you know, like cool, I'm glad we all gave it a go and we all got there in the end, like that's what we needed to do.
Speaker 1:And I was going to say, and don't get me wrong, you're allowed to have those thoughts, you're just not allowed to, like I said, inside voice, not an outside, correct, so it's. I guess we should specify that, because that's really really important, a hundred percent.
Speaker 2:To just not vocalize it. Yeah, that's what brings your culture down and makes you affirm that you are a controlling person or person in that position.
Speaker 1:So as a business owner if we can break down a few little categories. So as a business owner, I found actually I wasn't in control. I was out of control with too much workload. So we brought in an operations manager Now, keeping in mind that Bill and I had run the business for 19 years 18 years with him and I. So to bring in anyone from a management point of view is always hard, and actually it probably wasn't hard because I'm the least controlling. I feel like I'm the least controlling person, but then we all think we are, don't we? So maybe I'll self-reflect later.
Speaker 1:But when I brought our operations manager in, one thing I did say to myself and this is just for other business owners to remember that if I'm paying for someone to take on that role, I don't want to do any part of that role. She gets to make all the decisions for that, and whenever she comes to me with a suggestion, it's always, yes, happy to go with your judgment. And she's you know, she's only young, she doesn't have the business experience, but I have got her in for a reason, so why would I not take her advice and her thoughts? Because I'm paying for that, and it's the same when people have got you know, pay for a lawyer, for example. Why would you go to a lawyer and then not take their advice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly Like what a waste of money. Yeah, so I think it's about finding that right person as well, and probably some people are sitting here listening going, well, yeah, I tried that but they weren't the right person and they don't feel controlling. But I think, yeah, like that operations manager role is a big role obviously within any business and you do look for someone that is capable. So you would hope that you know that person you bring in is going to be capable and you can make those decisions. But I mean, I've had it in the past where I did employ someone in a management role and I felt controlling, but that's because the job wasn't being done, it wasn't being completed, essentially, and I think, like that can happen too. Like I, yeah, we're at a point obviously now this was years ago, this was before Charmaine was on with us, but and as soon as Charmaine stepped in the position, I just felt that weight lifted again because I was like, thank God, I knew that I wasn't this controlling person or had to check everything that was going on.
Speaker 1:So more that you felt like you had to control the situation At the time.
Speaker 2:At the time, yeah, Because I guess things happen.
Speaker 2:You know, you get, you know feedback from clients or you know potential complaints that coming in and then you're wondering, well, why was that process not looked after, and that sort of thing. So I think definitely finding that right person as well is a big, big part of it. Or finding the right person, starting them off in a smaller sort of lower position and growing them into that bigger position If you can see their potential, allow them to make those decisions and do all of that. And that's exactly what happened with Charmaine. Obviously she started as more of an assistant sort of scheduler role, but as the business has grown, she's had no option, you know, to grow with it. And now I'm always like you guys work it out, you give me the answer If there's something that's obviously more business related that I need to give them a yes or a no for, but I let them make those decisions first and then come to me. But I do that because I 100% trust what Charmaine's saying, right, but before that I wouldn't have trusted that person.
Speaker 1:So I think one thing which might be good just to mention is that if you find yourself becoming controlling in a situation, find out if it was, if it's validated. So in your situation it was validated because there might've been a complaint from clients or something where it validated the reason why you had to step in. But people shouldn't be controlling from day one when that hasn't happened yet 100%.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you've got to allow people to like earn their trust, I guess. Yeah, like you've got to give them the opportunity, step out of their way. Like you should be employing somebody that's incredible at that role so you can step out of their way and let them do it. Yeah, at the end of the day, we're paying them a wage, like why it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't do that. Yeah, correct. So then from a business owner then to a property manager, the same thing goes. Like you're paying a property manager, why would you not trust them from day one to make those decisions that they think is best for the business? And you know, I'm sure there's people out there that are still micromanaging property managers. I don't want to do any type of micromanaging, Like don't even call me about it.
Speaker 1:I don't want to know about it Like I find it so interesting that people want to be so, like business owners want to be so involved, like you can be involved and keep an eye on anything without being down their pants every single five minutes. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it's the same for us, like with inspections, obviously, and you know we work with so many different property managers, right, and every property manager has a different opinion. So, but obviously you know we do inspections. We have different ways that we try and look after the client in the way that they want it done. But at the end of the day they've got to remember that we aren't them, so their opinion isn't necessarily going to come through on our report. So I think that's it. It's just sort of understanding what's important and ensuring that's going through, and whether that's through a property management position or a leasing consultant or whatever, just stick to what's important and focus on that rather than it having to be. You know, well, I would have done it this way and then this way and then this way. If you still got the end result, why not just keep it at that and be happy with that? Yeah, if it's a positive outcome, obviously. Yeah, correct.
Speaker 1:It's that whole. I've been re-watching one of my multi-generational workplace videos and actually speaking to a friend recently about this exact same thing that certain generations like mine you go from A, b, c, d, e, and that's just how we do things where other generations go might start at C, then go to B, then go to A, then go to C, then go to E, but they still end up at E. Yeah, it's just, they go around a different way.
Speaker 1:They just do it a different way, so it doesn't really matter the journey. And to give a classic example of that, let's use one person would get on the phone straight away and make that phone call, and if they can't get hold of them, they would then send an SMS. Yeah, where another person person would send an SMS first and then, if they can't get hold of them, they'd make a phone call. Yeah, now does it really matter? Yeah, because we're still getting that answer at E. And one other thing that I think about is that we're doing what our generation, what our natural generation, does, like if you're younger, you're doing it as an SMS or an email, but we're also forgetting about the client at the other end. Like the client receiving it, are they also 19 years old, wanting an SMS? Or are they still got a landline phone and want a phone call? Yeah, exactly. So it's like we get so absorbed in our style and then forget, like our tenants and our owner's style.
Speaker 2:There's actually someone else involved, yeah.
Speaker 1:Correct, correct. I just find all of that so fascinating. Yeah, definitely, and we don't talk about that enough or bring that to people's attentions enough. Property managers that are controlling how would you describe that type of person? And there's a lot of you out there that are controlling. So I'm going to give some thoughts as well, but I'm going to let you go first.
Speaker 2:I think it's the expectation. Their expectation is, yeah, one way or the highway, essentially, and that is it. Like we said, they need to be open to different ways of doing things or be open to asking for feedback, be open to change, but I think it just stunts growth in a way, like being controlling just doesn't allow you to grow, and maybe you don't want to grow as a person, that's completely fine. Or in your role, you don't want to have that extra step in a career, or you've been there and you don't need that Weird people yeah, no, I'm the same right.
Speaker 2:But I think, yeah, controlling that scenario or whatever it is that they're sitting in in property management, it's potentially, like I said at the beginning, it's going to allow that, like they'll just feel stressed, They'll feel overwhelmed because there'll be different pressures from different people within the department. You know they're expected to manage more, so they'll, you know, sort of put that off having to do that. I think if you're just more open-minded to it, then it will make the stress go away. Like change just allows things to go forward in a different way or allow that growth?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so if yeah it's, I read somewhere the other day that it is fascinating how one property manager could be super stressed to 80 properties and then another. It takes them 200 to be stressed and I think, like you're sort of saying, it's the control that's in between.
Speaker 1:So if you are a stressed property manager, there is a good chance you are also a controlling property manager whether it's controlling physically in your jobs or just like mentally, like controlling, like not wanting, like you said, to step out and look at options. So that for me would probably be the first telltale sign, like if you're listening and you are super stressed, have a look at what you're controlling and not letting go. Yeah, because, and as a business owner, if you've got a property manager like that, then if they are controlling with things in the office for example, not wanting to use offshore, not wanting to use outsourcing, not wanting to use a checklist, whatever it might be and maybe they're really old school there's a good chance they're also being like that to your clients.
Speaker 2:So it's a bigger issue.
Speaker 1:And again like not giving owners options and just saying, well, this is just the way we do it, so it's too bad. So the control is not restricted just to one area. You know it's going to be affecting other parts. So I guess, from a business owner point of view, if you do have a stubborn property manager who's very, very stressed, I don't even actually know what the answer is in how to get them to be less controlling. But maybe if they come to you with a problem, it would just be making them give you a second solution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, being more solution focused, I think. And, yeah, I think that's sort of where it has to go. Otherwise, if they're not going to reflect on what it was or have another option, then they're going to stick in that controlling feedback, I guess. Mindset, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's that whole classic. Like I know with clients, we always try to give them two solutions to something. Yeah, I mean, in that situation, we want the owner to be in control, not the property manager to be in control. So property manager's there to give opinions, to give a couple of options for advice, and then the owner is the client and then they're the ones that control the situation of what they want to do. So it shouldn't be a property manager saying, well, this is what it is and you've got to say yes to it, because, yeah, it's the client that needs to make those decisions and be inclusive.
Speaker 1:There was another situation that I was just going to refer to and I've just lost it in regards to clients, but it'll come back to me mid-question next time. So I guess what I ultimately wanted for people is to reflect on controlling behaviour inside their business, know the signs of when they could be the ones being controlling and identifying the signs of when their staff are being controlling, because it is affecting that bigger picture. Like you mentioned, growth, that's a massive like. It's a massive thing that you're restricting and if you want to put in dollar value, I mean it's potentially millions of dollars. You're affecting your business, your property management business.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's what we're in business, for we need to be able to be covering our expenses and to if you're at that stage of your business where you're just not yeah, just not budging any further. We sometimes focus on lots of different other areas where it might just be like coming back to that hole. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Being, I think being like in that situation. I think people are more reactive because they're going I've got a problem here, I need to fix it, I've got this problem, I need to fix it, rather than sort of looking at everything as a whole, being proactive, coming in and having a look. But again, that's not the way that a controlling person would think. Right, they just do what's required and if there's an issue, then they'll tackle it head on and react to it. So I guess, being proactive and seeing if there are, I guess, potential issues that can come up, that then allows the growth and it allows them to step out of that controlling mind because they've been more proactive to it.
Speaker 1:And just giving things a go, like it doesn't matter if it doesn't work out, you're not going to die. Wondering so like why wouldn't you just trial it and see what?
Speaker 2:happens, be open to how it does work. So, if you do give something a go, see how it works, see if you still got to the end point that you were supposed to get to. Maybe it wasn't done the exact same way that it needed to be done, but if you still got to the end result, surely that's where you can be happy and go. Well, that just saved me, however much time, or that saved me this conversation with that staff member, so it's a positive result. Let's try it again next time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a classic example of that that I'll finish off with was a situation where I could have been at risk of being controlling, which was when we I was going to ask you that.
Speaker 2:Have you ever felt like you were in it, like you were feeling controlling? Because you do not have that tendency in you.
Speaker 1:I think at all, but yeah you don't remember a situation I don't Like I self-reflect a lot, so like I would pick up if I am being controlling and for me, controlling probably from a previous relationship point of view that I identified that with caring. So when you're in control, you care and you're passionate about whether it's a relationship or business or whatever. And you've got to get out of that mindset because it's actually not so. That for me was just something that I learned over time that it wasn't and actually funny enough when this is actually more of a personal story to share.
Speaker 1:But I remember then when I met Linz and I was going out one night and he didn't ask where I was going, what I was doing, who I was going with. He didn't care, like and what I took as that he didn't care and I was like I was. It took me a lot of like deep work, not through a therapist, just me personally thinking he doesn't care about me, like he's not asking where I'm going or who I'm going with. He literally was like are you going to be home tonight? And I was like, yes, of course that's right. And he did and I literally thought he didn't care about me because, he's not caring.
Speaker 1:But then I realized that he's like the least controlling person in the world the two of you together, oh my God. And so now I'm better about it, but it is, I think, we. From a business sense. If you are controlling, it's like oh, because I care about my clients, I care about this. It's not actually really about that. You don't actually, you are just trying to control the situation.
Speaker 1:So I guess where I probably could have been at risk at controlling was when we were really trying to be focused on the South Perth Como rent roll, like that's where we want our business. Bill was probably a bit more like dude, that's just where we're focusing, you know, not stepping out. And then we started getting all those calls for Rockingham. So for those that in Perth, you know, if you know, you know it was a real like do I be controlling and just try and stay here or do I just take that risk and go? Well, if I did so, that was like a second solution. If I did take it, you know how would it work. Well, obviously I'm glad that I did, because we have a great big portfolio down there. So that's, you know, worth multiple millions of dollars having that and if I had just said no, because I was controlling, because I wanted to be just in.
Speaker 2:South Perth.
Speaker 1:I absolutely wouldn't be where I wanted to be, and so that's a classic example of doing something that I actually didn't probably want to do yeah or feel a hundred percent comfortable with no.
Speaker 1:It's never going to feel comfortable, and I also thought to myself well, what if I only have five properties down there and it's not worth my time? And then, but again, always, yeah, exactly, exactly so this. But the second solution was okay. Well, if it doesn't work and I only have five properties down there, then at the end of the 12 month managing authority I'll pass them on.
Speaker 2:Move them on it doesn't have to be that one thing that you stick with. No, just change the direction. If it doesn't work, give it a go.
Speaker 1:And it's the same with fee schedules. Like I say to people like just give it a go, yeah, you don't have to commit to something for the rest of your life, yeah exactly. Just give it a go and If it works, great. If it doesn't take it off your fee schedule.
Speaker 2:I think it's the same, like, obviously at the beginning, when we're growing our business, or it is just us, or you know you're a new PM, has gone out and started your own portfolio and, yes, you need to be controlling at the start while you're creating the processes. It's your business at the end of the day, but in order for you to grow or bring on that first team member, we've had many clients that have been in that situation and they've tried to bring on a junior team member and tried to train them and that sort of thing. It hasn't worked. So then they've gone back to the roots of what they're doing. They've potentially looked at what they're doing, outsourced some of it, obviously, or got offshore team involved and then tried a different way again, or they've gone back and found another team member, brought them in-house, reduced the outsourcing, like it's just about being open to different ways of running the business.
Speaker 2:No, property management business is run the same way, like absolutely not, and there is no perfect way. I don't think. I think you obviously have, you know, things that you need to, targets that you need to meet, but yeah, I think it's just that change and being open to bringing someone in, teaching them and doing it the right way, being patient, not being controlling when you are teaching somebody else knowing they're not going to do it the same way as you, I guess, and just not having that expectation.
Speaker 1:And maybe as well like being controlling in a different way, where like, for example, if you've got a team of property managers, don't be controlling in their day-to-day jobs, like where it's going to interrupt them, but absolutely if you want to be keeping an eye on things in the back end. So, to give some examples of how I be controlling, which is like an inverted commas, if you're watching, this is like I don't interfere at all with the team. I let them make the decisions. I do say to them don't ever tell a client that you need to speak to me first Make a decision. Make a decision. I trust you all. You're not going to do anything that's going to cost me stupid money. Like, I trust you all.
Speaker 1:So, but don't ever, because it diminishes their value to the client. And also, if they don't make a decision and say I've got to speak to Ash, what that's doing is it's teaching them that or teaching the client that if they want a big decision made, they've got to call me. I don't want anyone to call me Like I'm on the property manager. I'm paying them to do it. So that's the reason why I think that's.
Speaker 2:it's so interesting that you say that, because I feel like a lot of people would really struggle to allow their PMs to make decisions like that Really. Yeah, I would say so. I think like if it came down to they've missed something on their bond and they've released the bond or something like that, and they have to go and pay or cover like the business has to cover the $500 cleaning bill or whatever it might be Like, is that a decision that you get your property manager to make?
Speaker 1:Yeah, they can make that and not come to you. No, they just have to tell me. Actually, they don't even have to tell me, I just tell the trust accountant. My trust accountant is super anal. She's like oh Ash, I've got to reimburse this owner $2.32.
Speaker 2:I'm like, please don't, oh Lord, please don't tell me, please just do it.
Speaker 1:But no, there's definitely been bigger bills, and that's something that we don't discuss enough. Like every single business is going to have an amount that they're out of pocket for mistakes 100% Get over that Like that's the way it is and I think that's, but you've got a process in place, right.
Speaker 2:You've probably got that budget, essentially that you've then told the team, I assume, and so they have a bit more of a holistic view on why they can make those decisions with you rather than coming to you, whereas I feel like, yeah, depending on the business, you would kind of I would probably say that there's a lot of property managers out there that wouldn't be able to make a $500 decision like that. And they would feel they have to go to their department manager or the business owner.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the way I see it a little bit differently. I see it as if that is only going to cost me. I mean, generally, if there's any little things, it might only be more around. Like there was the other day an invoice we actually weren't meant to be paying and it was a property that had settled and sold and it was just we couldn't recover the money and it was really stressing the property manager out and it was $204. So I don't look at it as it's costing me $204. I look at it as if I can close this down now. That's going to save my property manager five hours of her workload. So I'm looking at that Correct. Or I could make her go through the stress of forcing someone to pay that and that might take her more than five hours mentally and physically to do, and then somewhere else if someone else is missing out on that five hours of her workload. So I sort of see it like that.
Speaker 1:But similar to a shopping centre, I'm sorry, to a shop. My sister used to own a supermarket. There is a budget in there for stolen goods. So there's going to be stolen goods. You can't do anything about it, there's a budget for it. So that's the same as real estate. There's going to be mistakes and you just need to make sure that your team are comfortable bringing it to your attention first of all, but number two, that they learn from it and don't do it again.
Speaker 1:That's obviously a big thing and touch wood, it's never been a multiple situation and the girls know that. Number three the girls feel terrible anyway coming to me I don't make them feel terrible, but I know they do. As opposed to having a property manager who just thinks, oh, I'm not going to do it, ash's a bank, she can just pay this. It's the attitude behind approaching me about it. That's important, because if you just think, oh, it's an easy option, then I would have more of a problem, but it's more of Ash. I've really tried hard to do this. I've got a difficult owner and this is where we're at with it. They've come to me after they have wasted a bit of time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, and I think yeah, that's sort of. You've got that trust, you've built that through your team. You've got that culture for them to come to you with an issue, so that they're coming to you with that issue and the solution at the same time, and that's all you want. And they've tried Correct, that's right.
Speaker 1:So that's all I asked for In terms of like, where I sort of keep an eye on everything. So I guess as a business owner you can maybe do this instead of being on the day-to-day is like little things, like routine inspections. I look in the back end to see if there's any overdue. Or I look in the back end to see if there's a whole heap that have been done but not completed in property me, because that's like a heap of money sitting there just because a property manager hasn't marked them off completed. So for me I'm checking that in because, like you said, it's all about that destination, it's just about that end goal.
Speaker 1:So I don't really care about all the in-between stuff. I just want to know that at the end of the month we've done. What our portfolio suggests is the optimum amount of routine inspections. If they haven't been completed, if there hasn't been enough routine inspections done by a property manager for that month, then I would send a simple email to them Just say hey, I noticed that only 10 routine inspections were done this month. Your portfolio should be doing about 30 per month. Do you need a hand with anything? That's sort of an example of managing without every day going.
Speaker 2:Why haven't you done your inspections today, Like you don't want to be doing that, but that's you looking at it from a cost perspective, which you need to look at as a business owner. So that's the approach that you can take with. That is, obviously we need to make sure we're getting these fees in, because we charge fees over here in WA for routine inspections.
Speaker 2:So it's a big, it's a big part of the business. But yeah, and I think that's it Like that's not being controlling, I think it's just keeping your eye on the business and checking that things are going through the way that they should be and if not, then you can support that property manager in how that happens, whether they move them to the next month or they get them through this month or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, other things like would be from a leasing point of view. Like I noticed that one of the girls today she had three home opens booked and only one person through each of them, which sucks at the moment. So what I did is I went into the back end of IRE and I went and did a whole heap of prospecting for her to say okay, just so you know I've done prospecting, so hopefully there's more people at the home opens. I'm not necessarily controlling with why haven't you got that property leased? No, just get in there and do it, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a difference, you know.
Speaker 2:And you know where your property manager's at at this point in time, or their leasing whoever it is that was involved in that and if they are at a point where you know they don't have the capacity, like, how long did that take you? Probably five minutes to do that.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so yeah, absolutely, and I think then you letting her know that that's what you've done, she'll go oh, thank God, like that was so nice of Ash to do that and they feel positive about your approach to it. It's not being controlling, it's just helping, yeah.
Speaker 1:Essentially, yeah, and questions. I guess that could be different, like at the moment I'm doing. I'm speaking a bit on compliance. So we've got we track our compliance pretty well, but there's, you know, controlling business owner, one who would say to a team do we, you know, where's the compliance for the property? Why don't we have a compliance tracking system, for example?
Speaker 1:Or there could be a business owner saying something like do we have a compliance? Is that something that we need to work on? Like you know what I mean. It's a different way of approaching it. Yeah, a hundred percent, and then sort of putting that in place and helping them. And, like I was just speaking to Lou, just before you, we were talking about that leadership coming from underneath where you're saying to your property management team what do you need, like, what do I need to help you with, as opposed to that leadership from the top where it's like why haven't you done this? Yeah, a hundred percent, big difference. So just, I think, as a business owner, just look at your language that you're using. And yeah, if you're, yeah, if you're, because there is so many and, unfortunately, the ones that are controlling are probably the ones that are less likely to listen to the podcast. Yeah, but you know it's still a good reminder. You know I talk often about sales led directors. Everyone knows I've got an issue with sales Most sales led directors, not everyone, if you're listening.
Speaker 1:If you're listening. I like you because you're listening, but it's the yeah, it's just like they're the ones that need to listen and understand all of this and their property management team. Use the right language, be involved, the right amount of the right amount. Don't be controlling for something that you actually don't really know much about from a property management point of view. Get people in, trust the people that you get in and step out of it and only get involved if there is a complaint. Yeah, like that's it, that's what you have to do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1:Excellent. Well, it's always good chatting with you. It's like our only time sometimes we get to catch up. Can we do a podcast and we can catch up? That's right. Next minute you and I will be doing personal podcasts just to catch up on what's been going on. But good to see you, great to see your progression with the outsourcing Australia wide. I think it's. I know it's been a journey for you and I'm glad that you know you're at the good part of the journey now, which is wonderful, so it's great to see. So if anyone does need outsourcing around Australia or if it's in an area that's not yet touched, feel free still to reach out to Shannon to get some sort of advice maybe or some thoughts about how she can support you there. Thank you so much.
