PM Collective - The ART of Property Management
The Art of Property Management is where the real conversations happen. The ones about leading without enough support, building portfolios and careers, and staying relevant in an industry that doesn't slow down for anyone.
Each episode, Ashleigh Goodchild brings her 25+ years of on-the-ground experience and some of the sharpest minds in the industry to talk about what it actually takes to build a property management business that lasts. The challenges, the director dynamics, the moments that nearly broke you, and the ones that changed everything.
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www.pmcollective.com.au
PM Collective - The ART of Property Management
First moves when starting a property management department from scratch
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Ever wondered how a young receptionist at a real estate firm swiftly scales the ladder to become the head of a blossoming property management department? Alicia McCulloch of Aqwasun Estate Agents joins us to share her journey, and unfolds the process of creating engaging content, demonstrating that authenticity triumphs over flawless production, particularly when it comes to captivating video content. As we chat, Alicia and I unravel the tapestry of challenges and opportunities that come with building and nurturing community connections and the pivotal role of education in real estate.
Alicia's role is starting up a property management department from scratch, so she talks about how she did that with the power of personal outreach and community engagement. We don't just talk shop about Google leads and social media warmth; we explore the nuances of fostering relationships through meaningful online content. With the ever-evolving landscape of digital marketing, Alicia walks us through her approach, detailing the fine line between maintaining a professional online presence and keeping a personal touch.
We map out the journey of starting a new venture without the crutch of historical data, balancing ambition with reality in goal setting. And because networking and connection are the lifeblood of any successful business, we extend an open invitation to coffee catch-ups and industry gatherings, celebrating the power of informal meetings to forge lasting professional relationships.
This podcast is kindly sponsored by The Associates Co.
The Associates Co provides fully trained professionals to assist you with scaling your property management department. They are ready to hit the ground running! Once a luxury, VA's are now a staple in every business, whether you are managing 5 properties or 500+
Head over to www.theassociatesco.com
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Starting a Property Management Department
Speaker 1So today I'm delighted to have Alicia McCulloch from AquaSun Estate Agents join us . Alicia , welcome , thank you . I haven't had you on the podcast before , have I ? No , I've been hiding Excellent , excellent . I've had lots of newbies come up and I didn't actually check with you in the past , but quite often when I am doing them , there's two types of people , and I share this in case there's anyone listening that wants to come on it . But there's two types of people in the world . There's the one that likes the script , the questions that I'm going to ask , and needs to think it out . And then there's the other person which there's no prep , don't even know what we're going to talk about , and I just throw you in the deep hand and that's my style , and you haven't complained yet , so I hope that's okay .
Speaker 2I prefer that as well . If I know beforehand , I'll just overthink it and panic , whereas if it's just freehand , it's just to go with the flow , so much easier .
Speaker 1And I know that , like when I do video content , I'm fine and I know that you're the same and we're going to get into TikTok and video in a minute . But if I'm holding the camera and I'm just talking about whatever , totally fine , but stick a camera person in front of me with a list of questions and I freak out , I feel nauseous .
Speaker 2Yeah , most commonly , as I do get into it is my first take on a video , that's it . You just do it . If I think about it , it fails .
Speaker 1Exactly , and that's exactly the advice I gave someone the other day when we were talking about video , and I said to her one of the secrets is actually not watching it back , just tidying up the front , tidying up the back . The minute you have to start watching it , you're going to start looking at yourself a bit differently , thinking that you need to change something . It's easy just not to look back on it .
Speaker 2So that's today's tip and that's the advice I have taken very strongly because I think if I looked back on them I would not be happy . So I just take it , upload it and it's done .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely . So now can we because there's a few people that haven't heard of you before you're based in Perth and if you can share a little bit about yourself , your career and what you have , what's up to you now and what you've been doing before ?
Speaker 2Yeah , so I've been in property management well , in real estate since I was 17 . I kind of fell into it by accident because I had to leave school for some medical reasons and I didn't want to work in fast food because I didn't . And then a receptionist job came up in a real estate and it was , yeah , applied , got it and then just kind of moved my way up to be a junior PM for about a week and then I got given a full portfolio . So that was a little intense , but I'm very a think or swim person , so that was great . And then , yeah , just worked up , beat in a lot of different roles , a lot of different sized agencies and , yeah , it's been good . I did my diploma of real estate , which was good . I think everyone should have that . I think it's great . But , yeah , now I am in a small business in Golden Bay , which is nestled between Rockingham and Manjara , starting up the property management department with their team and yeah , that's where I am today and home life .
Speaker 1You've got three kids .
Speaker 2Yeah , I've got three children ranging from nine to one , so it's a little bit crazy and yeah .
Speaker 1And do you work from home or do the kids ? Are they in day care , the little ones , or how do you work with them ?
Speaker 2Well , I've got two in school and one in day care , so that works really well .
Speaker 1And obviously we've got school holidays at the moment , so people that are listening can't see the video , where there's people around and it's totally fine . So I've actually already gone around , or my partner's gone around and given the household a quick lesson on being quiet the next half an hour . So we're all experiencing it . It's totally fine the position where you're at now .
Speaker 1I met you at one of the coffee and conversations down in Downing Warnborough that we did and it's one of the ones that I remember , because what I loved about it is there was a group of us , probably about like five or seven , and they were all startup businesses , all doing BDM in the area , and it was such a fabulous catch up , wasn't it when we had ? It was great , it was so good and everyone was exactly in the same position potentially competitors actually very much so competitors but it was really nice just to share how everyone's experiencing the role and any good points and any struggles that they're having . So that was when I first met you With AquaSun . Obviously that's a new Was it a new company or was an old company ? Just didn't have the property management department .
Speaker 2So it's a well-established company . Quite a few years ago they did property management and then they kind of sold off their small apartment and just run sales for many years and then they wanted to bring on property management . So yeah , it's really handy . Being very established in the area , it makes a bit of a difference .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely so someone who is in the same position , where they have been invited to head up a property management department . There's a sales team granted , it's probably a smaller sales team . You've got a couple of people in there , so you've been invited to set up the property management department . So you're starting with a clean slate .
Lead Generation and Digital Presence Building
Speaker 1What was your first go-to when it came to trying to generate leads , like what was the first thing you started doing in the business ?
Speaker 2Picking up the phone talking to clients , playing off the already established grounds that the owner has and the sales team , which was really good and it was just word of mouth community talking to people . We've got like a cafe down there in our shopping centre meeting people there . A lot of social media is probably a big one and I try not perfect at it , but I try and make contact with everyone who inquires on the sales properties , who it's an investment potential . So any property I do like a rental appraisal on , so the sales team are ready to go straight ahead if it's an investor and just trying to be the forefront in everybody's mind . You know , screaming that we now do property management is probably the biggest one .
Speaker 1So if I can just get into the nitty gritty of it just a little bit more with phone calls and actually I've never asked anyone this , but the phone calls that you make to the database . So you've just started up , you're calling those people . They're very cold leads . What sort of conversations are you calling them up Like how are you doing ? Hi , I'm Alicia , just letting you know we now doing property management , or what does that sound like ?
Speaker 2It was more from a whole agency perspective , just touching base with them , seeing how we can help them , whether that was a sales lead or a property management , or did they just need an updated appraisal because the markets changed or things like that . We do get a few like the owner did have a good rapport in the industry , in the location . So that definitely makes a difference , and a lot of the some of them have also just come across because they know me in the industry and wanting to come back to that . So it's just , the phone calls are probably coming from a place of trying to help people , not trying to get the business doing that kind of opposite . I find if you're trying to just get the business on every phone call , it does the opposite effect , whereas if you're trying to help people , it's a backwards way of asking for the business .
Speaker 1Yeah , and that goes exactly into the same method of social media . Like you shouldn't really be asking for business on social media posts . You're there to educate and then in that roundabout way , you'll get business because you've helped them .
Speaker 2Definitely . I've heard that on your content before and a lot of people's content and that's something that I'm really trying to build up and do , like on TikTok and socials . I'm trying to be more informative than getting the business but , as you said , you definitely get the business as a roundabout way of doing it , which I think is better . It's much and I'm sure it was your content where it was like you're not . People don't ask for discounts when they're coming to you . So they've already made their decision , they know that they want to be with you because you've put out the information of why they should , and then , yeah , it's a much easier process for the whole way around . I find if you're going out just seeking appraisals and just wanting business , they're the ones who ask for discounts because they haven't got that established rapport or understanding .
Speaker 1Yeah , and I've also heard the same thing about , like Google and people that search you and find you on Google that those people are more inclined to be asking discounts because it's still technically a cold lead . They're only just going by whatever they can , you know , whatever they find using SEO , as opposed to finding you through that warm , educated lead , getting to know you , seeing posts regularly and then approaching you . There's a big difference in it . So there's a guide called and don't quote me on this , but it's a guy called Jason Hull over in the US who runs a podcast , actually , and a consulting business called Door Growth and he actually talks , I think , about that Google and how you know , a lot of people spend a lot of money on Google , but you it's actually probably a bit of a waste because they're the ones that are going to be asking for the discount . So spending money on the socials , I would say , is probably better money , better money , better spent for the better quality client that you're looking for . So it's just something for people to consider .
Speaker 2So definitely with the Google . Sorry , I will just say we are what we've been editing our profile on Google and putting updates on our Google profile , because then when people are Googling , how many times we say that they're already getting good information , instead of just having a blank standard profile and it's great , your reviews go on there and things like that but actually having information , and I didn't actually know you could change your profile and add information and add videos and add all of that . So that was quite good for those clients that are Googling .
Speaker 1Oh , absolutely so . What Amalish is talking about is the my Business , where , if you don't have a my Business profile , go and grab your profile . I think you just have to go and like confirm the ownership of it and just putting posts , like you said , as you would social media , but it's updating that and they also say things like updating your blogs on your website . Just that little tiny change is important . The Google reviews as well . Obviously , that's still activity , but there's some free things that you can do that increase your profile , because you don't . I mean , not , I'm giving advice on this , but personally I wouldn't spend money on Google at not at the moment , anywhere . There's lots of other free options we can do , so we have spent a little bit of money on Google .
Speaker 2Really good . When we were spending it we were getting a lot more leads and phone calls for our sales and rentals , but we haven't spent a lot , I must admit . But it definitely did make a difference to the number of inquiries coming in on the phone , Whether the conversions there or not . It was just . I guess building that presence was good for that time period .
Speaker 1Yeah , no , and at the start , when you're a startup , you sort of want to try and exhaust all your options as well and see what's going to stick and what's not , so going into obviously the cold cause and the helping the sales being the first two things that would keep someone busy who is starting up the property management department . Now that you are becoming more established and obviously we're very fortunate in Perth to have a really great rental market , so it's made I would assume it's made things a little bit easier on that . That's like are there any things that like , are you still making those cold calls or have you found that now that you're established , you've taken a step back from that and worked on another lead generation idea ?
Speaker 2I probably have stepped back a little bit because we're also in the process of changing software , which is where are you going ? What are you going from ? Where are you now ? Not yet , because we're still finalizing it , but the software we're with they don't do reports , which we didn't realize , but that's a whole another ball game . So I have to manually extract everything , so that's taking up a fair bit of time , but really it's just I'm focusing a lot on social media and in the probably more the background , and just setting up foundations and our digital presence .
Speaker 2We're wanting streamlined templates and things like that , just to have that different level . And just I get a lot from word of mouth and just servicing because I'm a big believer and I know some property managers may not be this , but to service your tenants as well as your owners , like your tenants are such a high part . I've called like a circle and we're part of that circle and if you move , if you lose a section , whether you lose the owners , the agent or the tenant and the contractors , it's not harm harmonious . And so by having that like , for example , when we have a new tenant , I'll meet them at the house to give them the keys and the handover and like when we sign up a new property , I'll go with the photographer to get the photos taken , and just those little things is where we get a lot of word of mouth from those extra actions . But I'm very aware that I'm only able to do that because we are a small startup , because I've been on the other end where we've never done that , so it's just different .
Speaker 1I call it a love triangle . So it's a love triangle between the owner and the property manager and they're all important .
Love Triangle and Social Media Strategy
Speaker 1That's interesting with the meeting at the property and I know a lot of people do do that at the moment and I would love to do it as well , but it's not as possible , I guess , when the portfolio is bigger . But I remember someone telling me how they would treat it like they would going to , for example , a really nice hotel where you meet them at the keys and then you actually go through the property and you show them how to work the air con , you make sure the hot water is working , you go through and point out maybe anything that they should know with the retic or something like that . And I mean in theory it sounds like for me . I think that's such a wonderful idea and I would love to do that and I'm sure there's people doing that already but unfortunately it's not always feasible . But it's a service if you are able to do that , I think .
Speaker 2Yeah , that's what we do when we can . There has been times when it's just not possible we ideally do and what I really liked about it was like we had a tenant that straight away knew I want to put a TV here , I want to do this and that , and I could just email the owner straight away or speak to the owner and just get that approval just to set everything up for success . But yeah , definitely not feasible for all and particularly if you have a big area that you service , it just wouldn't be optional .
Speaker 1I would love to , though I'm just thinking out loud now but how amazing would it be to be an agency where you could actually pay , like have a staff member full time with that was their job , and if the numbers could work , that was their job . They did all of those meetups . That would be pretty awesome . As , like a tenant , can't see urge . So maybe something to add into the budget .
Speaker 2Why not ?
Speaker 1Can I ?
Speaker 2just give it to like if you had an inspection agent or someone , because they're out and about , so they could , you know , possibly , you know , start their day at that property and then do their inspections .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely Something to think about . Now I'm asking you the gritty questions because I just want to go from . You know , I don't want to be too surface level , I just just want to get into the actual social media . Are you at the moment , then , doing the social media under the company name , or have you got personal pages that you're using to leverage new listings ? What does that look like for you ?
Speaker 2Both . So I've always had I haven't been too consistent with it , but I've always had a personal work Facebook page and my personal page and I've always kept that because I just it's just to me not as formal content and not as yeah , just not as formal , whereas our work content is typically pretty more formal , although we're trying to we're getting advice on changing that and then my TikTok is mine . We don't have a company TikTok yet , yeah , because typically it's just me talking , I think one TikTok account is enough for anybody .
Speaker 1Yeah , definitely .
Speaker 2More than enough .
Speaker 1So , okay , so , and then you so let's , we've got Facebook and Instagram , where there's the Sun Business page plus potentially an Alicia McCulloch business page , and then you've got your personal . Is that yes , and do you find that's feasible ? Do you have any intentions of reducing that , or are you happy with that ?
Speaker 2I was looking to consolidate and not have , because I know that you don't have a work and personal Facebook page , whereas I just don't know how I feel about having my profile on to public , for with my kids I don't know how I feel about that . So I like having that separate and I also don't want to overrun my friends and family with real estate stuff . So at the moment I'm happy with it separate , but who knows what the future will bring ?
Speaker 1Yeah , the . An example of someone who does it quite good is a . Do you follow Kinsley from OCD ? No , I don't .
Social Media and TikTok for Property Management
Speaker 1No , I don't . So Kinsley is the inspection express WA rep and she's always yeah . So she's got her Instagram , which is personal and professional , and I quite like following her because it is quite personal . But you just get to know people better , I guess .
Speaker 1So for me , the reason having just one is there's an element of laziness , so an element of only just wanting to manage one and not two . But I don't think I overload anyone with business stuff on my Facebook page . I haven't said anything , but everyone probably would keep their mouth shut anyway . But it's probably just more convenient and I guess my only advice would be is that if you can keep up the two pages consistently , fine . But if you're ever struggling , or if someone out there listening struggles to manage both consistently and one is dying , you know one is only getting random posts every month or so versus the other , then maybe just start combining them , just because you don't want to have a page . If it's inconsistent , you might as well not have one . That's the only , my only opinion on that .
Speaker 2Definitely , and that's what I have . I have found I have struggled with a bit , but I've said this year , so 2024 . If I'm not consistent with it , then I won't do it like . This is my . You're either doing it or you're not . Yep absolutely .
Speaker 1And let's touch into TikTok , because I've been watching you lately and I'm enjoying watching you . You also have the balls just to say stuff on it and not worry about the feedback , which I love , because people play it safe . I think on there a bit too much , yeah , they definitely do .
Speaker 2But I feel like if you're playing it safe , you're not actually helping anyone and I'm meaning tenants and owners or you know anyone . So I just say it how it is and just do it .
Speaker 1And you shared the video that you did on TikTok about the lady that came in .
Speaker 2Yeah , so I was doing a home open . We had probably maybe 20 groups through because I capped it because I can't handle that , anyways and she came through with her sister and she had a young , her young daughter , which was great . But she came in with a can of alcohol which was a little bit off-putting . And then her sister came in her pajamas . Now I keep saying that's fine in the video and I got hammered for that because I'm not here to judge people . I'm not here to judge people's well , to judge people's living and how they choose to present themselves .
Speaker 2But she specifically asked me what can she do to help herself to get a property ? Now I didn't tell her this and I really think I should have . So I do feel kind of bad about that , but perhaps wearing just any clothes and not a can of alcohol . The real issue was the can of alcohol . I just feel like that portrays not someone who I would like to put into a rental property . If you can't put that , leave it in the car for five minutes . It's just ridiculous . Sorry , but yeah , I got a little bit hammered on it of people , of all kinds of comments , but I also then haven't had to defend the comments , because then other people are jumping on saying that's great , that's exactly who I would want to be managing my property . You know , if they can't be bothered , you know to not drink , then it just sets up the standards , so yeah .
Speaker 1Yeah , have a bit of a video on and , like exactly what you said , you've got to let people fight it out between themselves in the comment . You don't really need to jump in too much because people do that for you and it actually helps the algorithm as well . So it's always good when people start having you know commenting and having an opinion back . It's a good thing for your profile .
Speaker 2I remember when I first got TikTok and I got like a thousand views and I was like oh my gosh , and just laughing because I just I did it as a bit of a laugh , to be completely honest . But now I am finding I'm getting more serious into it because people are asking for advice , they're needing assistance on what they sorry , what they can do for getting rental properties and just just helping people . Because , yeah , I think everybody needs advice and I didn't realise you can get private messages on TikTok and things like that . So I've had a lot of tenants message asking you know how can I help them ? And they will never be a client of mine . They could be anywhere in the world . I know that they won't be , but I'm still . The housing market is so horrific right now that if I can just help anyone get a property or just anything , then it makes me feel a bit better .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah , absolutely Well , it just goes to show it's very much an education platform . I mean , everything is , but it's all education . And the alcohol thing was an interesting one . I thought even I was sort of educated on it from , you know , having to think about how I would feel because someone had put on there something . I think that it might have been like a zero , like a non-alcoholic beer . Let's use that , for example , a non-alcoholic beer . And then it's like well , is that still appropriate or not appropriate ? And I mean , like I think you said this , it's still perception , I still , personally , I think it's inappropriate to be walking around with a non-alcoholic beer , just as much as I and I've had this discussion with my kids it's inappropriate for my children to be walking around with a non-alcoholic beer , because even if it is non-alcoholic , it's still a non-alcoholic beer .
Speaker 2Definitely . When someone commented that , I panicked I'm not going to lie because , like so it was a bill , whatever it was , so it could have been the non-alcoholic one . So I was going to delete the video because I was like , oh my gosh , how judgmental of me . And then I went no , because it's the perception . Yes , so it was perceived like that . Would I let my child walk around with that ? Would I let them drink that ? No , it's just , it's not acceptable . And if , and someone commented saying you know , if the market was the other way round , you know you would be happy with that tenant , basically , and I put on there , and I think I think you commented as well , like no , because it's still the perception and it's not someone who we would want to put in the properties . And what I commonly say to my clients when we're doing new business meetings is I don't want the headache , you don't want the headache , we don't want the headache . So it's just , it's not worth it .
Speaker 1No , that's right , and there was . It wasn't there a funny one the other day as well , and I had commented on it and he was like you're just having a power play . You had a messenger and I was like that's exactly what I am A messenger , that's it , yeah .
Speaker 2I love that because I always say that . I said I am just the messenger . I pass messages on all day because that's all we do . That's right If we , if we go to the basic of what we do , it's a messenger .
Speaker 1That's right . You're right , mate . That's exactly .
Speaker 2Yeah , well I know , but yeah , with Chik Chok , I definitely don't rewatch the videos and I don't like on that video I looked not great . My hair was so messy , I was just tired . We've been running around all day . I think it was in part of the heat wave and I just did it , because if you don't just do it and if you have everything perfect all the time , I feel like it's not authentic . Yeah , so I just did it .
Speaker 1Well done . Well . You're doing very well with it . My last question for you is is goal setting for new business ? How do you do that when
Setting Goals for a Startup
Speaker 1you don't have a history of the leads ? And I'm bringing that up because I was speaking to Beck Hulton the other day on an episode and she's got very strong goals . Her goals are based on what she is expecting and she will buy portfolio . She will do whatever in her power to get to that goal . Where I realized that I was setting my goals based on my previous 12 months and playing it . Maybe a little bit safe to say you know well , this is how many leads I bring in , this is how many new management , but they're not really fantastic goals . They're just based on the previous 12 months . So how would you and if you don't just say that you don't , but how would you set goals for a startup when you haven't had any history and you don't want to set yourself up ? For you know what I mean for disappointment . Yeah , do you set goals and how do you do that ? I ?
Speaker 2probably set internal goals . You know that . I just think , oh , it'd be great to get to this number . We as a business don't have goals , but it's something we have been talking about , because I'm a very goal orientated person and if I get given a target and if there's a reward for the target , that's even better . But if you get a target , I will just go for it . So I really do want to set goals for a startup . I don't . I think it would be great to have a number . That would be great if you achieve .
Speaker 2Although we as a business are not set on numbers . We don't want just any properties , we do . I don't know . Everybody says that at the beginning we are pretty particular to a degree . So and that's what's great about where I am with the business is I've got full authority to not take on a management . You know previous roles where I've been it's definitely a numbers game , whereas you take on everything , because it's a numbers game and we're not that , which is great . It's a little bit different . But yeah , we don't have goals exactly , but definitely probably more hours would be more along the lines of customer satisfaction , number of leasing days , something that we can kind of control more . But I think goals are good . Everyone should have something .
Speaker 1Yeah , I think you're lucky to be in an office where they're happy for you to be a bit more selective , because I would actually say it's the opposite . That with startups and I fall into this category where it's like take everything at the start while you're building and then party it up after that . But it's obviously a lot cleaner and and probably a lot better to do it your way as well . But they take a lot of willpower as a business owner to say no to business . I find it really difficult , but maybe under minority .
Speaker 2Yeah , no , I do agree . I think it's just it's not a numbers game , which is really good , because whilst we want numbers and we want to get new management , some things like that , thank you . I think my business owner just doesn't want the headache of problems , so we're just trying to minimise that . We did Breeze and we do do a lot of like . There was one property we took on for two weeks because it's sold , and it was , yeah , it's sold with another agency and they just said we won't be managing it , you're only going to own it for two weeks and then move in . And they just said no , and this poor elderly owner was just panicking , bowling like , and then my business owner was like , take it on . I don't think we actually made anything out of it by the time you actually factor it in . But it's just that goodwill doing the right thing really in those circumstances . But then you get the good word of mouth from that . So it's kind of that . You know well , we've got the time to do it , why not ? Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 1I think , yeah , when you go to set your goals and because you said it's not a numbers game you guys might just be better off setting a financial goal , whether it's the business or whether it's you know this type of revenue each month and then and that's the way every business should be setting goals , because that's what's actually important , not the number of properties on a portfolio . So , yeah , I mean , I find it extremely hard . It's so old school to do it the other way , but I think your business owner probably that's where I would , how I would be setting it anyway . So at least you've got something to work towards any as well .
Speaker 2Yeah , definitely , and you know what works for you might work for someone else , or you know everyone has different things , that what work for them is what I'm trying to say .
Speaker 1So , yeah , so if you were to take one marketing method that you're doing for a new start up , if you could only choose one thing that you're doing and continue doing it for leads , what would it be ?
Speaker 2Speak to everyone and everything , whether that's phone calls that kind of encompasses everything , social media , just word of mouth , just get it known that you're here , that you're knowledgeable , that you're here to help . Basically scream it from the rooftops , otherwise people don't know .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely , alicia . It's lovely catching up with you again . I look forward to seeing you , hopefully at the next coffee and conversations down at Buckingham , so I will be down there . For those that haven't been to one or haven't heard about them , jump on to our Facebook page , pm Collective , and under the
Coffee Catch-Ups and Industry Connections
Speaker 1events you'll see all the catch ups . There is a lots of coffee catch ups , there are some wine catch ups , there's some dinners and they are hosted all around Australia . So everyone is welcome and they're really casual .
Speaker 1So I stress that this to be casual , just RSD people turn up , grab your coffee and come join everyone at the table . They're really nice to connect with the industry and learn things and talking about things exactly what we've talked about today and they're just the conversations that we literally have in person with each other . So they're always helpful and and this episode will be very helpful for those startups or someone who's starting a department where you just don't know where to start , but you're going to start somewhere . Alicia is a is a great person to follow on , tiktok particularly , and social media to see what she's doing and how she is generating leads socially . So , alicia , thank you for your time in school holidays . I appreciate it and I will thank you Earlier this week . You already heard earlier of RSD much all the time . What was happening ?
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