This episode will leave you with an urge to change your perspective on property management! Jonathan Bell, the mastermind behind Housemark and Wingman's success, shares his unique approach to grow an impressive portfolio of over 2000 properties. This includes his daily ritual of engaging with industry colleagues over breakfast and the power of storytelling in creating a contagious energy around his business. Bell's right-hand man, Tyler, is the perfect example of this energy, and you'll find his storytelling skills absolutely captivating!
We also delve into the relatively untouched subject of 'insourcing' in the property management industry. Listen up as Jonathan Bell explains his unique take on this strategy, with every property manager having their own offshore executive assistant. We'll unravel the benefits, the preparations, and necessary considerations to make this work, including the emphasis on treating offshore professionals as core members of the team. There’s an enticing discussion on how this could revolutionize not just your work, but also your personal life management. This episode is a must-listen if you're intrigued by innovative approaches in the property management industry and the revolutionary potential of offshore resources.
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This weeks sponsor is On Tap Plumbing & Gas - 24/7 Plumbing servicing all of Perth from Mandurah to Two Rocks.
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This episode will leave you with an urge to change your perspective on property management! Jonathan Bell, the mastermind behind Housemark and Wingman's success, shares his unique approach to grow an impressive portfolio of over 2000 properties. This includes his daily ritual of engaging with industry colleagues over breakfast and the power of storytelling in creating a contagious energy around his business. Bell's right-hand man, Tyler, is the perfect example of this energy, and you'll find his storytelling skills absolutely captivating!
We also delve into the relatively untouched subject of 'insourcing' in the property management industry. Listen up as Jonathan Bell explains his unique take on this strategy, with every property manager having their own offshore executive assistant. We'll unravel the benefits, the preparations, and necessary considerations to make this work, including the emphasis on treating offshore professionals as core members of the team. There’s an enticing discussion on how this could revolutionize not just your work, but also your personal life management. This episode is a must-listen if you're intrigued by innovative approaches in the property management industry and the revolutionary potential of offshore resources.
The PIP Advantage for Landlord Insurance
Up to $70,000 contents cover included in our landlords policies
14 months cover for just 12 months premium in your first year
Further discounts when you have three or more properties insured through PIP
24/7 Australia-wide claims service
Online Real Estate Agent Portal for easy access and management
Visit their website
Keep your property managers doing what they love and outsource the things they don’t to a company that thrives on positive feedback and guarantees a premium personalised service
www.propertyassistwa.com.au
This weeks sponsor is On Tap Plumbing & Gas - 24/7 Plumbing servicing all of Perth from Mandurah to Two Rocks.
www.ontapplumbinggas.com.au
6206 6888
Welcome to the PM Collective, a dynamic hub designed to empower business owners, property managers and BDMs to excel in their careers Through access to intimate conversations, cutting edge of video training, mental health support and unparalleled motivation. Our community is the ultimate destination for individuals seeking to elevate their professional lives to new heights. So sit back, relax and enjoy our next conversation on our weekly podcast, the art of property management. Today, I am super excited to have Jonathan Bell joining us. Welcome, jonathan.
Speaker 2:Thank you, looking forward to it.
Speaker 1:Now, those that don't know Jonathan, he is the owner of House Mark and also Wingman, and you have a really cool story with sort of getting started in real estate. Now I've heard it, but I have actually mentioned you to a few people recently and said you know, go have a look at what John does, because you do some really cool stuff. So can you just give those that don't know you a bit of a brief history on actually how you started House Mark and then how Wingman eventuated?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, and thanks for the intro. I started my business four and a half years ago, so it was when I was speaking at ARIC. It was the 9th of March 2018 was when I got my first ever management and I just had a vision at that point to change the way that property management had been done. Typically, you know sales it's a sales business and then they've got a property management arm that probably doesn't get the care and love that you know it probably deserves. So I had a had a desire and ambition to change that perception of the property management industry. Started from scratch, I think after 12 months I got to about 100 managements and then from 100, we've grown exponentially and we've just over 2000 managements in in Queensland now across two offices.
Speaker 1:And has that been a mixture of organic and acquisitions?
Speaker 2:1800 out of the 2000s been organic. We've only bought, only bought 200, and we're growing by about 70 to 80 new managements a month organically at the moment.
Speaker 1:Amazing, Like people's jaws are going to drop by when they hear that story and it's very, very impressive. And I remember I don't know if you still do this or not, but I remember hearing you talk about how every morning you would have like a breakfast catch up with somebody. Do you still do that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've just. I've actually just changed it to 6.30am. So I do a six and I've challenged who you know Tyler. I've challenged Tyler to do the same. So a 6.30am catch up every morning with an industry colleague and also I've put a 5am call to my business coach every morning as well. So I'm a morning person. I love getting started in the morning and that I feel like I've got so much more time in the day now having those 6.30am catch ups.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I was saying I'm going to tell you a story because I was talking to my kids about you and about Tyler the other day when Tyler gave me a call and the first thing I was saying to my kids was that it's really interesting from a marketing perspective, whether you did this on purpose or just, you know, realize later that it was actually a good marketing tactic. But I said to the kids do you know, there's this guy that he takes a new person out for breakfast every morning and if you think about it, let's just call breakfast, for argument's sake, $30. $30 a day and for you know, five days a week, $150 per week. That's really good money like marketing, money spent, like really good, and it's the human connection and all of that. And I just think that that's amazing and it's just a little bit of different thinking that you know people might easily spend $150 hypothetically in a different marketing, but this is really really smart and I want to tell you a story about Tyler.
Speaker 1:So this is how we got on the conversation of you guys in my 40 minute drive to school each morning. So Tyler calls me up and obviously he's full of beans and this is early in the morning must have been at about I don't know 745 AM or something. And because he didn't know, there was a time difference in pet. So then he calls me up and then he tells me at the end of this conversation a story we hang out my kids go to me if they want, mum. That's really random. Why would Tyler tell you this random story to finish off the conversation? And I said I don't know.
Speaker 1:However, this is very, very clever marketing guys. Because, number one, how many people remember a marketing guy's name? First of all, now, we all know Tyler's name, so we remember him. I said, but he's also left us with a story that was potentially random in a really good way. And we now remember Tyler and the conversation based on this story that he left us with, which was completely not real estate related, and whether or not that is a smart technique or him just being fun, I don't know, but it was very, very clever. And it happened to me again that day where someone had left with a story and again another person said to me that's really random. I said no, this is the second time this happened to me. These young people are fantastic at storytelling and marketing, so not sure if that's like a plan or not, but it worked.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think storytelling is the best way to be able to communicate. I think even with your internal team, your property management team or your employees, the way telling a story will always get the best outcome of them remembering either who you are or what you're trying to tell them. So I'm all about storytelling and I've learned a lot from Tyler. And I think the other thing and Tyler's one of our business development managers at Wingman Group for everyone listening so he calls a lot of businesses and helps them utilize offshore solutions, but he's got the most amazing energy and it's so contagious and that's what I've learned from Tyler. Like he just has this energy where people want to talk to him, people want to learn from him, and he's doing phenomenal things and building some really good relationships purely from his energy level. And if you have a meeting with him at 6.30 in the morning, you'll just want to go crush the day. He's just got that aura about him. So I've learned a lot about that from Tyler.
Speaker 1:He is impressive. Absolutely Everyone needs a Tyler in your life, so I'll call you at the marketing call. Talk to him and have a really good conversation with him, because he's super, super fun. So now I want to have a talk about Wingman and how you implemented this business, how that came about in House, mark, and how you use BAs and what that looks like in the property management space for your office.
Speaker 2:Yeah, really organically. So when I had about, I think Jess Villa who some of you may know from previous talks I've done is she was my first ever staff member based in the Philippines and I think she started with me when I had about 67 managements and I actually couldn't afford an Australian at the time and I needed some support. I was starting to get overwhelmed with the amount of workload and Jess became my right-hand lady. I met her through a mutual friend and she just started sharing. We started sharing ideas, I started training her and it got to a stage after about a month where I would share my screen for about 12 hours a day and I literally would just train on everything I knew. I had a piece of paper like this one here and I just write down every single thing that was repetitive and if I ever had to do something twice, I would train Jess so that I don't have to do it again. After I trained Jess on what to do, she would then record the session, create an SOP, a standard operating procedure, and then she would file it as in her library of content. Fast forward about six months, she became the most pivotal part of my business. I got to a stage where I didn't even need a computer. Jess would do literally all of the backend work for me and I focused purely on business development.
Speaker 2:Jess then got really busy and then she said can my husband start? So her husband was an accountant. He then started running all of our accounts. So to this day he runs all of our zero rent reconciliation Basically everything to do with accounts. He even you know he talks to Macquarie about getting a loan. Everything is done through Adam and Jess runs our whole operations team.
Speaker 2:So we've got about 40 staff offshore in my real estate business now and then, because I'm so passionate about the Philippines, I just wanted to help other businesses do the same, and I think a lot of people have had a good or bad experience in offshore and I found it really interesting and I think a big part of it is the training of the offshore person. You know it takes a long time to get them trained and upskilled to be able to manage properties and assist a property management team. And I was just lucky enough where I didn't really have an option and you know I didn't buy a rent roll so I could teach Jess from the ground up. So we then built a three month training academy offshore where we put people through before going into any Australian property management business and I think that's where we've seen the real success is.
Speaker 2:By the time these people offshore go into other businesses through Wingman Group. They're actually already trained in property management and, like it's really interesting, like offshore, like Filipinos, they don't have hot water systems. So when they're working in an Australian property management business and they see an email about a hot water system, unless they're trained they don't know what that is. They don't know what a landlord is, they don't know what a tenant is. They don't know what an investor the wording investor is. So there's a lot of backend training that needs to go on to actually get them into a position where they can assist a property manager. And if you just expect them from day one to jump in and start helping your property manager, that's where I've seen a lot of offshoring fail and then that's where it gets the stigma that it sometimes has today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think what you at the start you said about screen sharing your computer and what a fascinating way of actually training someone directly or just having them present like they are right next to you and seeing everything they do, like I know that that's not possible for everybody, but what a great idea to get started.
Speaker 2:In our office now we've got two big TV screens and our offshore team sit on them all day, so they're basically in our office every day and we've got like headphones where they can talk, so we've got a fully interactive office and they sit in the office every day in our business.
Speaker 1:That's really awesome. So you said you've got 40 offshore staff. Have you got 40 that work for Wingman, or do you mean 40 inside Housemark?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we've got 40 inside Housemark and then we've got 150 who work across other agencies in Australia.
Speaker 1:Holy moly, yeah. So what does the? And I'm asking because people are going to be really, really curious. So okay, paul, at 2000 management you've got the VA's. How many sort of in-house property managers would you have?
Speaker 2:We have our property managers manage between 250 to 350 properties each, so we've got eight senior property managers across the 2000 properties. We do then have some support staff who help with entry reports, routine inspections and exits Great, and then we think the VA.
Speaker 1:so I've got one in our business at the moment and she's great, she does everything. But if I was to get a second VA in the business, do you find that it's easier? And there might be a third option, but in my mind I've been thinking the two options. One would be that you have both VA's do everything or tasks, but they do it for separate people. So, like VA, one would do it for property manager Amy and Casey and then the second VA would do it for the other people. Or would you start separating their tasks? So there's one VA that just concentrates on rent areas, one that does lease renewals, one that does managing authorities. What does that look like in the back end for you?
Speaker 2:For me it looks we're more task based. Every agency runs differently which I'm learning and everyone's got a different point of difference. So we are very flexible through the wingman group of actually like how people run their businesses and we support them underneath how they want to run them. In our business we have every property manager gets their own executive assistant, based offshore. So if you're a senior property manager, you get your own executive assistant. That executive assistant does all the maintenance, the lease renewals, all of the tenant communication via email. That basically leaves the senior property manager to do landlord communication and that's it.
Speaker 2:We then have an accounts division where we've got four people offshore and they're all qualified accountants in the Philippines. They do all of our rent reconciliation, all of our invoicing and they do all of our landlord replies as well, which is really interesting because everyone gets those landlords who reply saying can you send me this, this and this, and unless you have an accounting background it's a bit hard to understand exactly what they want. Our Philippines staff draft a reply through our CRM system that we use and then the property manager checks it and sends it off. And then we've got one more division which is our new business division. So again our BDMs get an executive assistant based in the Philippines, freeze them up to basically spend 40 hours a week on growth and no administration.
Speaker 1:See, I like that. I was chatting to some of the other day how I think the world is going to pivot a little bit when it comes to EAs and VAs. So I have got one personally that I started using and I haven't ever hired someone personally before. But I think that the time is going to come where, just like you have got an EA that works alongside each property manager, which I think is great. I also think and this is a little bit weird, but I actually think we're going to get to a point in life where each person is going to have their own EA or their own VA and that when they go get a job like, let's say, I want to go get a job at your place, at your office I come with my own VA. Who knows my style. Don't you reckon like that'll be awesome?
Speaker 2:100%. Yeah, I want to build something out where it's like run my lifecom and like someone who actually helps you run your life, books your flights into state knows what Uber Eats you like. So if you need Uber Eats, take it and you get me some Uber Eats at this time. Books the hotels. Like there's so much life admin that is better spent someone else can do for you, where you can focus on what you want to do. And as everyone gets more time poor, I love that idea.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I had mentioned it too, because I had recently got my VA. I'm off to Japan in a few weeks and I had sent her all my tickets and hotels and everything that I wanted to do and I said, can you just create an itinerary?
Speaker 1:Here's all the information, just sort it all out for me, and she did a great job. She sent me through the itinerary and I was telling my sister and my sister was, and she's got a 16 year old son and she was like, oh my gosh, she goes. I can picture Lucas, you know, hiring a VA himself. And that's why I was like this is what's going to happen. My children are going to hide them. Like you said, uber Eats, you know birthday coming up, you know photos from a holiday getting them all in Google Drive, for example. You know, just stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I probably shouldn't say this, but I used to get my university assignments done.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I mean, it doesn't surprise me, so I think that that's really great. I would, for me personally, I'd love to get to the point of having the each property manager with their own, because I think that that's really great. I mean, I love how I use mine. I just WhatsApp her, I just email her, get her to do all those things, especially when you're out on the road, and I guess that's where people really struggle with understanding, like what the next step would be, and so it's really great to hear from you with how you've got it structured, because for me now I'm like in my mind okay, that might actually be a really good way of doing it Each person has their own and start introducing it that way to help them scale.
Speaker 1:And it's a really big problem in business. I find at the moment, with capacity and I'm so glad that your team does do a good capacity, because I carry on about this a lot that we are that property managers, despite the technology, despite what they've got access to these days, they are still managing what I consider low, low portfolio numbers. And I also believe that and I say this like hardly, and I don't the property managers listing I don't mean this with any malice, but people will say that they're busy, whether they've got 80 properties or 200 properties. Everyone you are busy to your capacity and we don't push that capacity. So I like pushing capacity. I think it's healthy for us personally and professionally, and I you know that that is the level that my team I think are at about 180, they probably would be happy with 200. But the next step would be hey, if I was to get you your own EA, would 250 be achievable? And I absolutely think that it would be. So that has definitely given me some good thoughts on how that works.
Speaker 2:So it's really. It's really good for retention as well. Actually, like every single one of my property managers who started with me within about a month has come to me and said I could never go back to the way property management used to run. So as a business owner, it's been a really good opportunity for staff retention because people property managers wouldn't want to go to another agency now and do all the activities that they don't have to do anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's also very profitable for the business and then also, like it gives us an opportunity where we can pay our property managers more. So we have an incentive structure. If property managers want to manage more properties, then we can actually pay them more. You know, if you can get your property managers going from 200 properties to 250 properties, it makes a substantial difference to the profitability of the business, which I think you know. If you, if you want to, you can then utilize that money to then pay property managers more, which gives you good staff retention. So I see it as like a win-win for both the employee and the employer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely so. Your team, that your Wingman team, do they have? Do they obviously get trained in all programs? Is there anything that they specialize in particularly? And do you have custom like custom workloads where you might have? Like, if I said to you I want a marketing manager, could you find me a marketing manager? Or is there a focus on the property management tasks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we have a really broad range. So we've got a three month training academy that every single person offshore goes into. So month one is all about what is Australian culture? What is you know? Every VA or remote professional starts, they always say hello sir, hello madam. You know, we don't do that in Australia. We call them by their first name. So little things like that we start with. And then we talked about what is property management. So what is the industry? Why, what is the need of a property manager?
Speaker 2:Month two is all about the software. So we train in all CRM systems and all property management softwares. So by the end of month two they have to be as proficient as a senior property manager within that software. So they watch hundreds of hours of softwares and then we also test them every Friday on those softwares. And then month three is bespoke to the business that they're working for. So they're working for a task based property management business, a portfolio based property management business. They're working in property management, bdm or customer service, wherever they're working, and we train them specific to what their role will be. So by the time they come out of that program they're very well trained in property management. And then we also then do tailored hiring for agencies.
Speaker 2:So all of our marketing for house market and wingman's done offshore. All of our ads for our real estate is written offshore. So we've got ties over there for marketing accounts, digital marketing, like SEO whatever really people want, and that's what we're all about. Like the Philippines is an amazing place. There's 13 million people in Manila and every single person we hire over there has a university degree and every job ad we put up, we get over 100 applications per job. So we're interviewing at the moment for an IT provider. Like we're going to get an in-house someone offshore who's going to run all of our IT. Like we spend a substantial amount on an Australian IT company. That can be done offshore as well. So we're using it in every part of our business and it just gives us so much more opportunity to spend money on growth.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amazing, so that's really great. So if you're listening and you do have like a bespoke sort of position that you need, you're reaching out to wingman and seeing you know what options are available is a great idea as well. We have spoken about there's some hesitation that people have with VA's and I've got two questions for you. The first question is what do you find is the biggest myth that it will misconception that people have? And the second question is are we using the right terminology, like I just heard you say before, remote professional? Are we should be, like you know, potentially like? Is VA like okay to use? Or should we start, as as an industry, changing our language with regards to what we, what we call that position?
Speaker 2:Yes, I love that you brought that up, because Filipinos don't like being called VA's, virtual assistants. They believe that they are more qualified than that and titles in the Philippines are very important. So if you give your remote professional a change in title, watch how happy they are. That's more important to them than a financial incentive. So we call all of our staff overseas remote professionals and then in our, in our property management business housemark, we call them assistant property managers. So, and then Adams, our head of accounts, jess is our operations manager. So they all have titles no different to Australians, but as a category, they Filipinos would much rather be called remote professionals, rp's and VA's. The only reason I say VA is valuable asset, so that's the way that we use of the wording VA.
Speaker 1:Clever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then what was your first question was around the myths.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's do you find is people's biggest like misconception about using remote professionals, like why they are so, why people so hesitant to start that process?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I. So everyone says it doesn't work like offshore is an. It it's like a product. Offshore is a is it's a human being. They're actually no different to hiring an Australian. So I find it really interesting in wingman, people are more nervous about hiring someone offshore for a third of the price than a senior property manager who's got access to all your data and all your landlords. So it's not, and if you have a bad experience, that's potentially the person. It's not the it's not. Offshore is a general. That doesn't mean all 13 million people in vanilla are not capable. So I think that the thing is that a lot of people give offshore one chance and if that one person doesn't work, then they'll never use it again rather than going. You know what? Maybe it was the person overseas, maybe I didn't train them well enough, maybe they weren't trained enough, or it was their leader. You know what are all the other factors that went into it and giving it another opportunity and that's probably the biggest thing is people keeping an open mind to it, treating them like Australians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so just like you have the three month Academy for the you know, the remote professionals, sounds like that Australian property managers need a three month Academy before they get to use one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and they're coaching. Like you know, property managers are very protective as they should be of their workload, so letting go and getting someone else to do their work for them is a challenge and it takes time to be able to get them to do that. And, and what's the incentive for the property manager to manage more properties, like as a business owner, just getting them to manage an extra 50 properties? Well, what did they get out of that? And they're all the conversations we try and have with the business owners and the team leaders to be able to assist with that transition.
Speaker 1:That's right, because I think that quite often people use added extras, like whether it's using outsourcing or whether it's new technology or whatever it might be. I find that it's very common Property manager complains to business owner, business owner like a bandaid will just fix the problem by providing something tech support, outsourcing, whatever it may be but they do that like a bandaid fix as opposed to saying, well, listen, if I was to get this in for you, not only would we be able to free up your time, but you're also going to. You know, would you be able to do this capacity? Or you know it's a give and take from everybody, I find, and I don't think those conversations are had, because if we just put a bandaid over something just to sort of pacify the situation, it actually only lasts for a few months. From experience, you know it lasts for a couple of months. It's helpful for a couple of months and then next minute you're back to where you were before.
Speaker 1:So, like you said, the incentive needs to be there as well and those discussions need to be had and I think that, like that's really great that you have those conversations. So you know, anyone does want to explore the option of how they can assist their property management team and get in touch with you. Then you know you can create something for spoke. But how great that you also have property managers backed by having those conversations as well, you know, with the business owner, to make sure that the business is profitable. And at the end of the day, we all just want long term loyal staff, don't we Like? That's what. That's what we're aiming for in life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100%. And being able to provide our landlords the level of service that they expect. And you know, the giving the property managers the time to be able to do that. But I would even challenge as well, like, why is it called outsourcing, like we call it insourcing, like you know, like it's basically they're a staff member within your business, they just don't work in your office. So, you know, I just think that mindset shift as a business and then as an industry will give the Philippines a lot more credibility.
Speaker 2:And you know, we've just we've just got our phones. So all of our phone calls are answered by a guy called Richard and he has a Canadian accent but he's based in the Philippines. He's answering 80 tenant calls a day because we're growing so quickly, like we're trying to reduce our calls, but 80 tenant calls a day answered. And the reviews we're getting from him are amazing, like we're getting Google reviews and email saying Richard's amazing, he's so friendly, he turns up every single day, answers every single call. So you know, we've even gone a step further with actually letting him speak to our clients directly.
Speaker 1:So good.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's. You run an incredible business and I think that you there's an extra layer of I'm impressed with an extra layer because you have come into the industry relatively new, where we've, you know, like a lot of us have been in the industry for, you know, over 20 years, but with a fresh mind and with a non, with a non real estate background. So you just come in completely fresh and going, well, why not, why can't we do this? Why can't we do that? And it's really refreshing to actually see and I hope that those listening do pay attention to to you know, to your business and how it works for you and how incredible it is and the growth because it really is.
Speaker 1:It's really amazing what you've done and setting up Wingman as well, and it's it's, in a way, a bit of a kick up the bump for people that are just doing things like they always had. So if, if they don't follow you, please go over. I mean I follow you guys on Instagram. So go follow Wingman, go follow House Mike, go check out what is happening inside this business, because it is incredible and you're all going to have to watch your back and I'm glad you're not there. That's all I can say, thank you.
Speaker 2:And I encourage everyone to call Tyler and have a 630 AM meeting with him. Please call.
Speaker 1:Tyler, he's great. You've got some really great people in your business and I appreciate your time jumping on and sharing some knowledge with everyone. So now Tyler is worked in the Wingman business, doesn't he?
Speaker 2:Correct, yes.
Speaker 1:Excellent. So you know what. Call up Wingman. Find out a little bit more about the business. Ask for Tyler. He's going to help you and you'll be glad you made the call.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for the con words.
Speaker 1:No, worries, talk something.
Speaker 2:I'll see you in a second Bye.