PM Collective - The ART of property management
The ART of property management with Ashleigh Goodchild is a leading platform supporting collaboration not competition through an online community and events throughout the year with one purpose: to create happier property managers. She creates connections for property managers looking to create momentum in their careers and personal life. Join Ashleigh and her guests as they discuss challenges, struggles, mental health, mindset and give advice to property managers and anyone in the industry. To get the support in your property management career, join our PM Collective Facebook and Instagram community.
PM Collective - The ART of property management
Getting tenant selection right from the start
Ready to unearth the secrets of successful tenant selection in property management? Join me and Sophie Anapliotis, as we take a deep dive into the complexities of this
often ignored yet crucial process. From the role of leasing consultants to the imperative culture of mentorship, we delve into how junior consultants can be nurtured to sniff out red flags and ask the right questions. We even weigh in on the weightage visual appearance carries in determining tenant suitability.
Ever had that gut feeling about a tenant but couldn’t quite put your finger on it? The second segment of our conversation unwraps the significance of blending logic and emotion when evaluating potential tenants. We take an interesting detour as we ponder over how property managers can trust their instincts without having met the potential tenants. Our discussion also charts out the importance of open communication between the leasing consultant and the property manager in providing a clear picture to the landlord during the tenant selection process.
As we round up, we put the spotlight on the red flags in tenant applications. We lay bare the importance of verifying tenant information, the need for identification like a driver's license for a successful application, and the art of engaging with tenants to make a well-informed assessment of their application. And remember, when things seem off, trust your gut and ask questions. So tune in and equip yourself with the knowledge to ace tenant selection and steer clear of potential challenges.
Don't miss our enlightening chat with Sophie Anapliotis, as we unravel the intricacies of property management and tenant selection.
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Welcome to the PM Collective, a dynamic hub designed to empower business owners, property managers and BDMs to excel in their careers Through access to intimate conversations, cutting edge of video training, mental health support and unparalleled motivation. Our community is the ultimate destination for individuals seeking to elevate their professional lives to new heights. So sit back, relax and enjoy our next conversation on our weekly podcast, the Art of Property Management. So today's podcast. We have the lovely Sophie Annapaleotius joining us. I hope I pronounced that right, sophie, perfect, excellent. And Sophie is the director of Real Estate Geelong or on her social media she's also known as Geelong Property Management. So thank you for joining me. Thanks, ash.
Speaker 1:Now Sophie is one of our team leaders I guess we could call you that's going to be looking after the coffee and conversations in the Geelong area, and so if you are a property manager listening in that area, make sure you do check out when the next coffee and catch up is. And just off record before, we were talking just about the importance of those catch ups and how I have found and I know you have to the need in the industry, just about ideas, often the idea of catching up with your industry colleagues and sort of you. Maybe you're talking about a struggle in your office with maintenance, and then you can go what are you using? what are you using? and all of those conversations are just so important for the industry to have to make sure we're all on the right track and we're all finding our job as easy as possible. So thank you for representing PM Collective over in your area. It's my pleasure. Now, today we are going to be talking about tenant selection, red flags and how to identify them.
Speaker 1:Now I think that as a seasoned property manager, you and I would be able to naturally see these things and these red flags when we do viewings and homeopens. But I think that there are also a lot of newbies in the industry where they just haven't developed that same sense, and I think it's just an age thing. I don't actually think it's a property management experience thing more than an age, and I remember doing a podcast a while ago with a leasing consultant and he was a mature leasing consultant, so he was probably I mean, i'll have a guess he might have been like 50s or 60 and he was an experienced property manager. And I remember thinking to myself like what an interesting choice for a leasing consultant, because we are so used to viewings and homeopens being held by the junior in the office, like the young 18 year old or 20 year old, and it got me thinking that the leasing side of things is one of the most important parts in property management.
Speaker 1:Like if you get that right, the whole tenancy is easy. Like you get the right tenet, there is no problems. It's a breeze, and yet we leave that job position sometimes to the juniors that don't naturally see things that we do And I think that's something that I would like listeners to have a think about and not degrade the position of a leasing consultant within the office. Like it really is something to consider, the more experienced ones to do. Like I don't know what your thoughts are on that.
Speaker 2:Oh, 100% like. I truly agree with what you've said, that if you set the standard of the tenancy right from the beginning, then everything else becomes a breeze. So, having that experience or being able to if you are going to have a junior going out, definitely shadowing them, or having them shadow you, and knowing what to look for, there's nothing more important than having that mentoring and looking at okay, this is how this is the conversation to have, or this is the way to ask the right questions to make sure that you're getting the answers that you need to determine whether this is going to be the right fit. And when you first come into the industry, it's very right. Here's your inspection app. Open the door, get there 10 minutes early, make sure that there's no tripping hazards You know the things that you learn and then open the door, let them in. If they ask for an application, ask for an application, give them an application. But there's so many other little things that happen in between that you do learn over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. So I actually did a home open yesterday. So I don't do a lot of them these days, but I did one yesterday and I was thinking about, you know, our talk today and I don't want to talk about this too much, so I'm just going to mention that we'll sort of breeze over it a little bit. But the first sort of red flag I did want to bring up was the visual appearance sometimes of people, and I think it is something that you probably you can't pinpoint it like, because it's just a feeling that you get when you see someone visually. So I think you're just going to have to pick up on those cues. I mean and I'm going to say it so you don't have to say it, because you know people might have an opinion.
Speaker 1:You know, i just say it bluntly, but you can have people that look really rough.
Speaker 1:You could potentially have people with like nothing wrong with face tattoos, people, but you know you've got that sometimes young people might be a bit scared of, maybe older people might be a bit scared of.
Speaker 1:You've got people that have no shoes, the way they dress, the car they drive, and I'm not in any means saying that these are red flags, but what they will do is you need to sort of. If something feels a bit odd to you, then you would just make sure that the application checks out is probably where I'm getting at. Like that should never, ever be considered a red flag. And but if there was that visual uneasiness that you felt and it was complimented by an application that was not completed correctly, have missing information, then together as a as a whole it might be red flags. But if you have someone where you felt it's a little bit uneasy and I've had those people then I've had their references come through an application and they're amazing, they're no problems at all. So I just wanted sort of just a briefly mention the whole visual thing but how that would complement the application without coming across as that I'm being biased, or just adding which I'm not.
Speaker 2:I think it's about trusting your senses and the gut feeling that we get as well as property managers and as humans. I always say and I actually explain this to my landlords or to my investors is I go? I do go on gut instinct a lot of the time And it sounds weird because you want to talk about the practical and the pragmatic side of it.
Speaker 2:But I say the more time that I get to spend with these potential applicants at the open for inspection, asking the questions and getting to meet them, is that's a really, really important side, because I get my feel of them And then I back it up with logic, and the logical side is the application. So you need for me I don't know if it's the same for you, ash, but I think that the two go really hand in hand together with having the gut feel versus and then backing it up with logic through the application, because there's a lot of things that you see, feel here, smell, that you don't necessarily get on paper.
Speaker 1:So then, what would advice would you give to an agency where they have the least in consultant that goes out and then the application is processed in house with the property manager who is making that final call? How would someone in that office environment get that gut feeling when they haven't had the opportunity to meet them?
Speaker 2:The communication between the leasing consultant and the property manager is so key. There is a section on majority of the inspection apps where you can put private notes And having the information that comes through and that, yeah, the feeling that you do get, or if there is a little bit of a red flag, it should be brought up from the beginning and say, hey, you know, look, they presented really well, but there was just something. it was just something a bit off or they were rude at the inspection or they were asking things that I feel like maybe they're going to be a little bit higher maintenance and the property is a little bit older. There is some stuff going on. So maybe we need to look into a little bit further about how they deal with things, with maintenance and things like that, to make sure that we are setting the tendency upright and that the landlord's not going to be, yeah, in for a rude shock when they ask for a full kitchen or bathroom upgrade because it's not to their standard, just those little things like that.
Speaker 2:That part is really, really important, i believe, for the property manager to know.
Speaker 2:So then when they're doing the processing of the references if it's the PM or if it is the leasing consultant there can be more questions that are asked. that will sort of put ease to that gut feeling or that character feeling that the person who was doing the open may ease. to give a little bit more clarification to the landlord And the I do whenever I'm sending an overview, when I'm putting an overview together for the landlords to give the final check, i do have a section in there called agent feedback and that's our feedback from the agency about how they've been to deal with as anything that's come up that we say yes, the feedback has been that they might be a little bit high maintenance. not a bad thing, but just be aware that if there have been things that you've been putting off, like leaking taps and things like that, they're probably going to pick up on it. So let's put a plan together to make sure that it isn't a thing that comes up as an issue, because it more than likely will with these tenants.
Speaker 1:Something like that. Yeah, yeah, and I think tenants make it so obvious when they go to a property. They don't even realise they're doing it, but they're listening for those warning signs of them having a whinge about anything in the property. I mean, i know that our office, we've been known to say to people that have looked at an old house before and have whinge a bit to say listen, please have a think about if this house is right for you, because it isn't the house The owner is planning and demolishing it in three to five years time and there are going to be little things that might bother you that the owner is not prepared to fix, and so you set that from the start and it saves a lot of problems. And it's also been very honest with the tenants as well with what to expect.
Speaker 1:I think that when I've not done a viewing and I've received an application I had one the other day I actually bought up the tenant and all I did was call tenant to say hey, just letting you know that application's been put through to the owner And we think we'll have an answer by the end of the day.
Speaker 1:And just even listening to them, hearing them, it gave me a little bit of peace of mind, knowing that they were OK, just by talking to them as well. So that might be something else that people won't agree if they haven't had the opportunity to talk and talk, and I don't think this is a warning sign Well, you might say it's a red flag actually, but I'm mindful of it is when people constantly call you about their application and they hassle you like every day, every you know, twice a day, just checking in how it's going. Sometimes I actually think to myself gosh, like if you're going to be this painful now and not patient, like what are you going to be when this maintenance coming up? Are you going to call me every five minutes to you know this is fixed? I don't know if you would see that as a red flag, but it's me being a pain.
Speaker 2:No, not at all, Not being a pain at all. Well, the other red flag is references not getting back or them not providing the right documentation or taking ages to bring in the documentation. If we have to follow them up for longer than 24 hours, we just say look, you're obviously not that keen on the property or you don't take accountability for it. It shows a level of accountability and working together. So that's also another little thing that I pick up on.
Speaker 1:And it's yeah, it's creating that character reference like instead of their behavior and how tardy they are and their attention to detail and they're probably going to forget their rent and not be that worried about it. So I know that in an application form and I think it's pretty common, but I'm going to mention it in case someone doesn't do it. Maybe it's the newbies that might need this reminder, but quite often when you have a look at their real estate references and then you check their driver's license and seeing if there's a different address there, and some people I mean I don't like using the word dumb very often, but it's like guys if there's an address on your driver's license and you're giving me a copy, i can see that address and I can find out where you live before You'll do it all the time.
Speaker 2:I think the most that I've had on one application was six different addresses found And when I sent them an email and said, hey, can you please provide some context on this address, this address, this address and this address, because I found it all through your documentation And on that as well, it's identifying the reference that they've given for that property Are they actually the owner? Do they own the property? or, especially, if it's a private reference, because a lot of the time, unless you do the right checks, it could be that they just rent it off another tenant and they kind of make themselves out to be the owner. That's definitely come up before. I don't know if it's come up for you.
Speaker 1:Not too much, but I do find dates out. So I normally say to tenants I don't actually really care too much as long as it makes sense. So if you have got missing gaps in your application but it makes sense, I'm okay with it. But it's when things don't add up that I'm going to investigate a bit more. So for me, a couple of things like I would do is I would jump onto RP data and have a look at the history of that property that they've rented Just to see whether, like if they've got that length of time that they've been rented, but maybe on RP data it's saying that it was, it was re-rented during that time, Or if the dates don't just add up, then that's a little bit of a concern for me as well. And the driver's license one is probably the biggest one with the notes, but it's.
Speaker 1:I did have someone the other day. He was, I think, like 38. He provided two private references and that was it. And I actually just said to him mate, like you're 38 years of age, you must have a reference, like for the real estate agent, Like how do you go 20 years of adult life without having anything Like there must have been you know whether you've for rented, sold like you've. That I couldn't be doing So like for me it didn't. It didn't make sense. But the reason why I investigated that a little bit more and why that made didn't make for a good sense to me was because I had already knew there was other red flags. You know what I mean. So it was like that was a bit of an icing on the cake red flag for me Where if everything else looked perfectly, I may not have questioned it, but I only questioned it because it's like you're giving me nothing on your application, Like I've got nothing else to go by.
Speaker 2:I need something more, and having documentation as well that references different, like whether it be a spouse, yeah, yeah, that's. that's another thing as well. And but also, like all of these things, it's over time. It's having the confidence to know that you can ask these questions to the applicants, it's being able to call up and say, hey, this doesn't make sense. And it's our jobs as property managers even though we're not the ones that make the final decision. It's our job to put this, this together, to represent you to the owner in the best way possible, to give you the best chance at getting this property or the next property or or whichever how it goes. So you need to help us, help you To put this overview together And the majority of especially, as you said, like the junior property managers, they may not have built that confidence or that experience yet to be able to have that conversation, or they don't want to deal with the conflict or the backlash or anything like that, but 99 percent I would say 100 percent of tenants appreciate it.
Speaker 1:They do And I think just being honest with them and saying, listen, I need to relay as much information to the owner so that I can put you in the best light. Can you help me just understand this part or this gap? And that's where cover letters come in. Really well, Yesterday this home open the lovely guy he was on a disability pension and he said, listen, like my application is nothing like And once in one week, like actually with me, with this guy is, he goes to me and I actually my gut told me he was fine.
Speaker 1:So I'm actually OK with it. So I'm happy with that. He was very quietly spoken and he looked really genuine, So I think that I'm OK with him. But he did say to me my application is pretty basic. He goes. I don't have a driver's license, I don't have a passport, which was a red flag when he said to me that he doesn't have access to any of the ideas. So I've got to find out more. He goes. I'm on a disability pension. It goes. I'm supported by my mum and my brother. He goes that my mum and my brother have real estate references. They've got everything you need. He goes. But I will do a cover letter explaining why I don't have anything.
Speaker 1:So out of the three occupants, he is a potential red flag. So I'm like, who doesn't have some sort of ID? Like for me, if you don't have ID, you're hiding something. They're enough passport. They're enough passport, driver's license, I mean. And so actually, now that I think about him, thinking out loud, now he actually drove to the appointment. So you know what, You know what. He did have a driver's license. So there you go, I'm actually just talking, thinking out loud, actually, as we're doing, He just answered.
Speaker 2:He just answered. I just answered my own question.
Speaker 1:OK. So, people, that is how easy it is to let something slip, Because until I verbally actually said that, I actually didn't even think about it. So, yes, he drove to the appointment, Yet he told me he didn't have a driver's license. So red flag. Actually, I don't actually like that application anymore, because the minute you're lighter than once, that's it Like I'm over it. So you know what. I'm going to mark that as a low priority for the others in front.
Speaker 1:Thank you, PM Collector listeners of Australia for helping me work that one out. That's what collab's all about. Right, Talk to people sometimes so you can just like bounce these ideas and these thoughts off. Anyway, thank you for that. That's a no for me, But it just shows you how easy it is to potentially like here's someone say something Me saying you know what He actually was quite nice and softly spoken And then not even noticed that I was actually willing to accept that he didn't have a driver's license And I was actually going to go. You know what? I'll go by his mums and his brothers, But now, like, for me that's a big cross. There you go. Glad we all sorted that out for me.
Speaker 1:So my next one is, which I'm a real big believer in this, which is a bit ironic because I talk a lot, but I hate people that talk too much And I feel like when they talk too much they're hiding something. So you add a viewing. If someone hangs back and wants to tell you their life story and wants to tell you how much they love the gardening, like that for me bothers me. Am I just being a pain or is that something that other people have those thoughts on too?
Speaker 2:I'm sure that a lot of us do.
Speaker 2:I match it with other behaviour.
Speaker 2:So, like we, i've noticed over time how to pick up on little physiological signs of people being anxious or nervous, and that can sometimes be people's way of thinking that they're putting their best foot forward where it's like, no, you're actually just being a little bit over the top and you need to sort of chill out a little bit. And I find that having that one-to-one conversation with them, they can start off with, you know, yes, the gardens and all that sort of thing, but it's just sort of I don't know sort of where I'm going with this. But if I'm picking up other signs that they are rambling, so I feel like they're just trying to fill in the noise or trying to put the best impression forward, i just say, well, i'm here to answer any questions and I'd love to talk to you about this further. But you know like and I'll just call it out you know how long you've been in the market for. You know how long have you been looking for a rental for?
Speaker 2:And then there's sometimes the real conversation sort of happens from that if they are acting a little bit sort of nervous or over the top and things like that. So I haven't necessarily had a lot that ramble on too much. So I don't, yeah, i think that It's so interesting.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, i find the rambling where they tell you their whole life story and your daughter had to move back in and then the you know their son did, but then he works on them, mine, and that's why we've got that many cars, and they just go on and on and on. But I guess the rambling is more like them justifying. This is why I've got pets, like I do remember. Actually one lady goes oh, now we've got like four dogs and two cats and six birds because my daughter moved in and then my son's moved in for a bit of a separate from his wife, and they go on to justify like, yeah, a lot of drama the drama, that's right.
Speaker 1:And it's like, well, the owner's not going to accept 18 in the property number one. But for me it's like, yeah, they just give you the sub story, which I find that the people that have a genuine sub story are probably less likely to actually disclose that to you because that's quite a private situation that they're in. And then, yeah, quite at least sort of having a word to you. I guess the difference is in that you get with the gut feel, when someone overshares, because they're justifying their shitty references and why they would potentially have shitty references, that's a problem. But someone genuinely saying, listen, i've applied for a lot of properties and I think it's because of this and this, Like, do you have any tips for me? I'm okay with that. That's not a rental answer to me, it's the other way. But yes, it's even hard sometimes to verbally explain what it is.
Speaker 2:But you get a feeling.
Speaker 1:It's the feeling it sees cues, and I've actually done training with a lot of PM collective members with regards to nonverbal signs, and the nonverbal signs is something that people actually can't control, and if you are a member of the PM club and you jump onto some of the expert videos, there's actually a video there which is purely on nonverbal cues And it could be something as a slight shoulder shrug or something like blinking too many times or what else you know, just different types of body language And, like I said, they're uncontrollable, like it's not possible. They're so micro that you can't physically do it. If you tried And some people with experience you know, when you get that feeling and you just like, oh, it's just a feeling I got, it's actually probably you picking up on these nonverbal cues, but you can also be trained to learn them as well, and so for someone that's newer in the industry, this would be a really good topic to look at and to get some training on to help develop that natural sense.
Speaker 2:Well, going back to the rambling, i'll touch on it just a little bit. A lot of the rambling that I've had more experience in has been them sort of rambling or expressing how they've been hard done by by a last owner or a last agent. That has probably been more of the red flag that I've picked up on. And you know, to the other houses, they never do maintenance And I'm just so unhappy there And every time I ask for something they never get back to me And I'm just so you know, so sick of it And I do everything I do, i pay my rent, i clean, i do everything that I'm meant to do And I'm still just not. I'm still being treated like a second, second classes. That sort of thing has come up more. Well, i'm going to say yeah, more often than not in those particular situations, if they are that have that sort of mindset of glass half empty or being a little bit of that in that victim mentality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, absolutely It's. It's no different than being interviewed for a job and then talking badly about your past boss. You do not do that in an interview process. I'm just going to summarize them all for people. So we've got the red flags with tenant selection, how to identify them. We have got checking the addresses on all the documents driver's license, bank statements, bills. Make sure those addresses are also listed as references on the application form and if they aren't, jump onto RP data, check some history and have that communication with the tenant and ask them to fill it in for you if you see those gaps.
Speaker 1:So that's the first tip. Number two visually you'll get your gut feel. And if you don't have the ability to see them visually, then speaking on the phone or trusting your leasing consultant to help identify if there was any thing that you should know about from a gut instinct. There are some gaps in applications. If you're doing an application and just something seems odd, investigate it and ask those questions, like I said, to the tenant as well. And the last one was the talking too much and picking up on any negative vibes that you get from the conversation or any justification that they've got as well. And just remember, if you're a business owner, be mindful who you put into the leasing role. Like I know, i have juniors do it as well. It's something that gets done. But at least help train them in these red flags. Have them listen to this podcast so that they are aware of things that they could be mindful of. So I would definitely recommend that if you're looking at getting a leasing consultant, do consider an experienced PM or even better. I know that in my team my property managers like to do most of their homeopens themselves, because they actually find it easier to process the application when they've got that feel for the person And at the end of the day, the property manager is the one having to manage them. So they want to make sure they're getting the right person in. Otherwise it's them that are going to have the headache. Totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:Sophie, thank you so much for joining me today. It was lovely having a chat with you and I'll have Sophie's details on the show notes for this podcast. Please, if you're in your long, connect with Sophie and attend the coffee conversation, catch ups and other people in your industry as well, and if you have got a rookie, make sure you listen to this podcast. So thanks so much. We'll also make sure I forgot to mention. Sophie's got a resource template for application processing that she's going to kindly share with me. I will put it in the PM Club resources so that if anyone wants to have a look at that. So really nice professional looking template and you might find it useful in your department as well. Thank you so much. I'll chat soon. Thanks you.
