Aaron Emery's Expert Strategies for Asset Nurturing and Client Retention

Aaron Emery, a seasoned expert from PULSE Property Management Business Consulting, joins us to discuss the financial gems often missed in this industry. We guarantee that you'll come away with a fresh perspective on how to nurture the assets under your care and the art of client retention. Aaron takes us on a journey through his 19-year real estate career, offering not only his professional insights but also the personal stories that shaped his approach to property management and business ownership.

Prepare to shift your mindset as we tackle the challenges property managers face under sales-centric leadership. We explore actionable strategies for showcasing the true worth of your rent roll and the pivotal role that retention plays in solidifying a business's financial foundation. With a spotlight on the need for redefined KPIs and a stronger grasp of financial metrics, this episode is a masterclass in advocacy for the resources you need to make your property management department thrive.

Embrace the future with us as we consider the revolutionary impact of AI and technology like Troodi AI on the property management sector. Far from a dystopian job-snatcher, these tools promise to revolutionize efficiency and elevate the importance of relationship management. 

Connect with Aaron Emery - https://www.linkedin.com/in/aaron-emery-2b2010a3?originalSubdomain=au

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Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:27

Today I have a guest who I see all the time on Facebook and social media but never had the privilege to chat with, and that is Aaron Emery from Pulse Property Management Business Consulting in Brisbane. Aaron, welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:42

Thank you. Good morning Ash. It's so lovely to finally get to do this together.

Speaker 1: 0:46

I know I think it's been probably quite a few months in the making and I have seen your name come up, but probably only more recently, so I don't know if anything had changed on your end, or maybe I'm just noticing it more as well. So I'm really excited to find out a bit more about you, what you do in the industry, and then today we're going to be talking about the numbers in business, which I think is probably something that you specialise in with your job. Is that correct?

Speaker 2: 1:17

Yeah, exactly so I do try to help business owners to really understand those critical numbers and critical factors and I guess we can touch on it more. But I guess in one thing I've definitely noticed over my career is that a lot of property managers themselves just don't really understand true asset value and so it pains me when they lose a management and their mindset is, oh, we got rid of that bad owner or we got rid of that time waster who drained my time. And I think if we change that mindset and look at it and go well, actually we just lost an $8,000 asset we might be a little bit more mindful about retaining business instead of being so happy to lose it all the time I preach those words.

Speaker 1: 2:04

absolutely, I'm so excited to talk about that. Can you just give everyone, and me personally? I'd love to find out a little bit more about your career and your history and sort of what led you into this business.

Speaker 2: 2:17

Yeah, sure, so I'm coming up 19 years in April this year. In the industry I started when I was like 22, 21, something around there, it seems so long ago now. I've always really been interested in property. I won't go too much into detail, but I was that little nerd kid that I lived in an area where there was a lot of construction around me and I used to sit out the front of our house and look at these houses being built and I used to draw my own house plans. And then that kind of led me into wanting to go to open homes. And I went to my first open home when I was 12 and the sales agent kind of looked at me and was like where's your parents? And I'm like are there at home? I just saw this paper advertised in the paper and I really wanted to come and have a look at it. She was amazing. She kind of said look, stand to the side, let me do my thing and I'll let you come through for five minutes at the end and I was like so excited.

Speaker 2: 3:14

I then went in and kind of had a customer service based role, I guess for the first few years of my working life, and then I thought, well, how can I get into property without needing to go and do a degree in architecture or construction or anything like that? I didn't really have a university bone in my body after high school and so I looked into real estate. I didn't want to go into sales because I was worried about commission only kind of structure or the whole debit credit system, and so property management seemed to open up an opportunity that I could be in front of people dealing with customers, which was great from my customer service background, and also then looking at many different properties and getting to explore everything from a townhouse unit, a house and luxury to not so luxury and everything in between. So, yeah, I got started as a rental assistant all those years ago and the rest is kind of history from there.

Speaker 1: 4:11

Amazing. And so then you. So you're working in the property management industry, but then going out sort of on your own, yes, yes, and that. How does that progression happen?

Speaker 2: 4:25

It was something that I. It took a lot of courage and I guess that's one thing I'm now. You know I have a lot of these days and look at that you need to have and take that leap of faith. I'd been working for other agencies at that 10 year mark and I'd worked for a lot of principal licenses that were not property management focused and unfortunately that really pained me because I wanted for my customers and my clients, my landlord clients, to have really good experiences and I was just seeing that churn, churn of loss of management, churn of property managers.

Speaker 2: 5:03

I think one role in particular I took many, many years ago. I was the 23rd property manager in 18 months and it should have rang alarm bells to me at the time but it kind of didn't because I didn't know what I know now back then and I thought, okay, well, I'll make a difference and see if I can change it, and I think I lasted in that role for about 16 months and then I was like, okay, this is not for me. And again, another business owner that was very sales focused. So at the 10 year mark I was working in a position in onsite management and the business owners sold the management rights, and I did have the opportunity to stay on board with the buyer, but they wanted to kind of bring me on in the same role but also add training to that role as well, and so I had to teach the other team members how to do things in that particular complex. And then they wanted to pay me less and so I was like, well, that doesn't really seem right. So I'm just gonna take my payout package and I got a redundancy and I use that money to basically reinvest in myself and I started my first business, which was originally named AAE property services, which was just my initials. That's how I kind of started off and I built that for the first three years.

Speaker 2: 6:21

Growth was a little bit slow in the first 12 months, trying to compete with the bigger franchise groups, but I just did a lot of networking and then I rebranded to Pulse residential and I think you know Joe and Olaviri as well. I'm really well connected with Joe. We met many years ago when I worked for Harcourt's and she came to do a training session in Townsville, where I used to live, and we kind of reconnected in 2017. I went along to one of her conferences, she took me under her wing and I became one of her consultants and I really learned. I mean, by that stage I had a lot of knowledge about property management not so much knowledge about business ownership and so I really learned more about the business of property management, understanding the critical numbers and the factors and how to be profitable and how to stop churn and get retention within clientele and that kind of thing. And so then in 2018, I started Pulse property management business consulting. I ran both of them simultaneously along side by side and did both for six years and that was great because it really helped me to remain relevant, but also for my consulting clients, I was able to really gel with them and sync with them because I was in the trenches as well. So I think a lot of businesses in the industry and a lot of property managers in the industry if you wanna be a coach or a consultant to have that relevancy of staying connected and being in the trenches and understanding market conditions and what they're going through really is quite beneficial.

Speaker 2: 8:00

But in 2022, so a year and a bit ago now I decided to sell the rent roll business and, yeah, I sold this to some dear friends of mine. I had actually kind of helped them launch their business about four years before that. And jokingly back then I said to them you never know, one day you guys might buy me out. And here we were. And so I went along to their son's first birthday party and little Archie and yeah, I said, look, I am thinking about exiting. And straight away they said we're gonna buy it. So we started having discussions. I was under contract by September 2022, settlement on the 1st of December, and it all went through smoothly, with retention in finishing in March 23. And then I jumped on a plane and went overseas for four months with my husband and just took some time off.

Speaker 1: 8:51

So Beautiful, how nice. Where did you go on your four months?

Speaker 2: 8:58

We went all over. So we did a round the world ticket. We flew Brisbane to Singapore and then Singapore to Zurich in Switzerland. Then we flew from Switzerland to Italy, then over to New York and we kind of went down the East coast of America, went on a cruise from Miami, which was amazing. That's when I met with Jess in Orlando and spent some time with her.

Speaker 2: 9:23

Then I went over to South America my husband's from Brazil. So we went and looked and checked out Brazil and Argentina and Chile and what I decided to do. Seeing as though I was going to all those areas and I really am property management nerd, I decided to turn it into a property management study tour internationally. And so everywhere I went I met with a real estate agent or a property manager, it didn't matter who, and really tried to just gain a bit of an insight and understanding as to how they do property management in Chile, for example, and in Buenos Aires, in Argentina and Brazil.

Speaker 2: 9:58

And I guess what I learned was, in the grand scheme of things, it's all kind of similar we rent houses, we manage houses. The language is obviously different and definitely the legislation changes so much, which is really the interest where it got quite interesting about what can be charged and not charged to tenants and the way tenants are treated or not treated, and yeah, so it was a real good eye opener. I loved it, learned a lot, and I am thinking I haven't started anything yet, but I'm kind of looking at whether I think international investors with properties overseas would probably really relish in knowing about the differences in legislation and what they need to kind of expect. So I am thinking about writing a little book and putting a book together about my experience and kind of just touching on, you know, the difference in legislation and what they can expect if they're a property investor with a property in Buenos Aires versus in USA versus in Australia, for example.

Speaker 1: 10:58

So I thought that I think property managers would find I'd find that a really interesting read as well.

Speaker 1: 11:04

And I think that that would also open up people's minds of what could be done differently and how the industries can improve in each area. Because, like when I was over in the US as well, like one thing that I noticed, like you said, it's the same idea, you know collect rent and arrange maintenance. But what I did notice that was different is that in Australia we are expected to wear so many hats and be the experts with court attendance and all the legal side as well. For example, where over there, if a tenant needs to be terminated I think for memory the owner pays a fee to a lawyer which is like $700 or $1,000.

Speaker 1: 11:44

And then the lawyer takes over the court application, the termination, the bailiff and sort of does all that which I just, like, I love, like that makes sense. Why does that not happen in Australia? Yeah, you know why is that falling on property managers to now be an expert in court applications and evidence and stuff like that. You know what I mean.

Speaker 2: 12:05

Absolutely. Yeah, and that did stand out to me as well was the difference between I mean even lease agreements. You know, there we are. Our lease agreements are obviously written by industry authorities and governing bodies and stuff like that. But over there it's more about having an attorney write your lease agreement conditions and that attorney has to approve everything. If you do need to do an eviction, the attorney gets involved and they handle the eviction process If a tenant breaches you know conditions of the lease. Yeah, so I hear what you're saying and it really did kind of open my mind to looking at the way everyone does things slightly differently but how we can all learn from each other. So I went over with a lot of knowledge that I could share. But I also went over as a sponge because I wanted to come back and absorb so much when I was over there too and then kind of roll it out to how I can adopt that here, like take the best bits from each area and implement that in property management in Australia with my clients. So Amazing.

Speaker 1: 13:07

The one thing that I'm taking away from this story is that you selling your rent roll going away for four months, and I know that Tamika Smith, who sold her rent roll recently, as many as she's been away, I think she only went away for two months. So now I'm getting a bit excited about when I eventually sell my rent roll where I can go for a few months and have that Not for a long time. If my team are listening, it won't be happening for a good eight years, so you're all safe.

Speaker 1: 13:35

Now I would love to chat a little bit on sales-focused directors, because this is one of my big frustrations in the industry. When you said that, I felt like I'm very strong-willed, I guess, to my thoughts about it, because I feel that they want to reap the benefits of the rent roll but they also can't take any responsibility or put in any effort. And obviously I'm talking about not everyone, but there's a big chunk of sales-led directors that that's what they do and it's probably just. There's such a vast personality trait in a salesperson versus a property manager. But what I like to sort of help teach people is, as a property manager, if you are working for a sales-led director, what can you do to help that sales director understand things? So if we can have a little bit of a chat about that and maybe you could share a couple of things that a property manager could do to help the business be profitable and help the director have a profitable business as well.

Speaker 2: 14:50

Yeah, well, I guess that could be twofold, because it would lean into a little bit as well about understanding numbers, because I found in my time, when you are working for a sales orientated director who has never usually never worked a day in their life in property management, they're often the type of people that they really just want to look at numbers and so if you don't know how to confidently explain to them you know the number of losses that you've had or the number of gains that you've had and where your arrears percentages sit and where your market percentage sits in the marketplace, your business owner is not going to well, not that they're not going to take you seriously, but they're going to very much struggle to understand what the property management department needs, what it needs in terms of infrastructure and software and processes and procedures and policies and all those kind of things to be able to get the best results out of the business. And I think kind of twisting it a little bit, but I think when a business owner is not property management oriented and they don't understand it, they're the ones that I often get the phone calls from and they're calling me going. Can you help, because I'm getting this information from my property managers and I honestly could not tell you if it's right, wrong, indifferent, or they're just telling me what I need to know and hear and they're kind of blowing smoke up my backside or something. And so it's those owners that I really want to connect with and kind of go hey, it's okay that you don't know what you don't know, but don't bury your head in the sand and don't think that everything's okay when you keep losing. You know 20 to 30 managements a month, that's not okay.

Speaker 2: 16:44

And and the mindset of, oh well, that's okay, we'll just replace them with buying another rent roll, and it's like but you got to look at the leaky bucket. You know, fix the hole in the bucket first and find out why you're losing before you keep adding, because otherwise you're just showing good money at bad situations. So I suppose it kind of ties in with understanding numbers. You know, if you can go in there and be really factual, use spreadsheets to your advantage or whatever other tool you can that helps that business owner to really understand the critical components around the right way to grow. And I say that as well because you know you've got some business owners out there that send out their bdms and they're like I don't care what you do to get the business, just get it 5%, you know, discount where you have to, we just don't want to lose it to our competitor.

Speaker 2: 17:38

And then they're building these assets which, as you know, really have no value or are very low value because they have very low management fees and further to that, there are there's usually widespread as well, and you know 30 or 40 case from the office and yeah, so it's a. It's a combination of things. But I would say to property managers know what you're talking about, let's do some one on one training or even do a live session with multiple people, and I really want to educate them about understanding you know those critical numbers and not just kind of going in there going well, I'm going to grow at any percentage and take on any property in any location at any rent and as long as I meet my criteria and my numbers, I'm going to get paid my bonus. And I think we need to kind of angle bonus structures around actual profits and income from that rent roll and from those new management, as opposed to just oh great, you got 20 this month, you hit your target.

Speaker 1: 19:16

So yeah, I think that that's probably like. One thing that I would take away is, if you're a property manager and you are on KPIs and let's say that your sales and directors put you on a KPI for this many management Maybe start shifting the language around that and ask if you can be on a different KPI which is to do with how much value have you bought into the business that month.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Exactly.

Speaker 1: 19:43

I mean, I will be honest, I fall into the trap of just the numbers on the rent roll and my language.

Speaker 1: 19:51

I still use that. You know we've got over this many properties, which I know is not relevant and I, but I do fall into that trap. So it's very, very easy to do, but I common sense knows that that's actually not the biggest KPI that we should be looking at. The other thing is what you touched on was with retention. Retention is the new growth. I'm very big believer on that and I think that there is no point a BDM bringing in new management if you're losing the same amount on the other end.

Speaker 1: 20:24

So I think a lot of people get wrong based sort of see the two departments as completely separate, but so yeah, if they just counteract each other. So the property managers have such a big responsibility for that retention for the business and just as important as that BDM coming through.

Speaker 2: 20:46

Absolutely. In fact, I would even say you know, if you're willing to risk it all and you're a boutique agency with no sales office so you're not getting those leads coming in, then really you're going to only grow through retention and through nurturing your clients and then obviously, your networking and building that referral channel network through whoever it is mortgage brokers, builders, accountants, etc. Yeah, retention is the new. You know BDM growth kind of strategy.

Speaker 1: 21:18

Absolutely. And then there's still room for growth in the business because you still have got rents that go up. You could still have value add, you can. You know your fee structure, you can adjust as time goes on and things like that. So there definitely is still a way to slowly increase your profit margin by retaining those stuff Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 21:42

And one thing that I've experienced recently is a struggle with business owners not wanting to implement technology, and I feel that they are seeing technology as a cost and not as an investment.

Speaker 1: 21:59

An example that I've got with someone I've been talking to is a business owner who is happy to get a new staff member when they get to a certain point with their portfolio, but doesn't want to bring in any technology such as like Inspector Real Estate or some sort of, you know, leasing platform which can help them with their viewings and also the applications they're not wanting to bring in you know help with maintenance, for example, like you know, with an, with the extra apps like Tappy.

Speaker 1: 22:36

I find that quite frustrating. This is coming specifically from a sales director and my you said before about knowing the numbers and that's exactly what I had suggested to her is that she go to her boss and say listen, like you're happy to get a new staff member when we get to this many properties, but that's going to cost you this much. However, I feel that we could probably handle this many properties that we don't need anyone else in if we had this program and this program, which might be $500 per month, you know what I mean? That's a fraction of the price, but she's really struggling to get them to understand that that needs to be done, and my concern is that, as your team grows bigger, you haven't got your base. You haven't got down what you used to word a minute ago I can't remember what it was infrastructure. You haven't got your infrastructure right and yes really need to get that right.

Speaker 1: 23:35

I think a lot of people think they need more staff and it's like not necessarily not if your systems are a bit slow and a bit old fashioned. Are you seeing a lot of that?

Speaker 2: 23:45

Yes, I do, and I think. I think it comes again from those sales directors or principals that have been in the game for, you know, 30 years or more and they probably still have that mindset that the property manager is responsible to do X, y, z task from start to finish. And you meant to do it all on your own with paper checklist or you know whatever it might be, and they just haven't shifted, or they struggled to shift over and kind of realize that these new softwares and technologies that are available to us and different platforms really will bring greater operational efficiency if they're implemented and done correctly. But I also am seeing where some of them are implementing technology and systems just for the sake of it, because they get excited about it and they're like, oh, we need that and they may or may not need it.

Speaker 2: 24:42

But I hear what you're saying and, yes, I'm getting a lot of people inquiring with me, kind of going look, my property manager says that we need this particular piece of software. What do you think? What do you think? And I'm saying to them well, if it's going to save you time, save you money, because you're not having to have more team members, then it's actually a no-brainer and you probably should consider it.

Speaker 2: 25:07

And I think, again, we do need to shift, because I actually am seeing that Not that AI and all of that, you know like there's that big thing out there where AI and property managers think they're gonna lose their jobs because of technology and AI, automation and everything else. I Don't necessarily think we're going to have a mass exodus and everyone's gonna lose their job. Ai and technology is there to enhance what we do and support what we do, but remove those mundane tasks from our everyday operational, you know, apparatus so that we can focus on building and nurturing relationships, and I am seeing that With the likes of tarpy and inspection express and I don't know if you've heard of Trudy AI.

Speaker 1: 25:57

Joey mentioned it to me the other day, so I'm interested yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:00

Uh-huh.

Speaker 2: 26:01

So I met the guys at for at Trudy over in rent manager last year and let me tell you, ash like that piece of software Is exactly what a property management business needs in order to be able to scale in numbers of Management's without having to have the traditional method of one property manager in a portfolio style for every 150 managements or something.

Speaker 2: 26:26

It really is that intuitive that Trudy is in there doing all of your back end ad hoc duties and I would even go as far as saying could potentially Be the replacement of virtual assistants, and even they haven't been around that long.

Speaker 2: 26:40

So that's scary if we've advanced that far. But you know you could use Trudy and it will do everything in the background for you and allow you to be able to grow exponentially in numbers of doors under management, whilst only still having maybe four or five or maybe six, depending on the size of the rent roll real key team players, who they're, you know, doing your open and your open inspections and exits and entries, and that's assuming you choose to keep doing them in-house and not outsource them, which is also quite big and popular at the moment and then maybe three or four key players that are really nurturing relationships with both landlords and tenants. And and embracing and harboring technology to allow you to have that scale without needing to have 22 property managers, for you know, two and a half thousand management or something. So yeah, it's very exciting.

Speaker 1: 27:38

Yeah, I'm eventually mentioned. At the other day, I was like I definitely need to do a bit of research in that one. I See, and I, yeah, I don't think that any of this is going to replace stuff, but what I think it will do is it will increase the capacity so that we can then, as business owners, pay more To managers, and I think that the property managers deserve, for you know, decent incomes as time goes on, and I think that I'd be, I'd see that that would be happening. Yeah, the increase in salary is what's going to happen as a result of this technology, but you have to be a property manager that gets out of that mindset that you can also only manage a hundred properties, which there are so many still around, and If you ask me, that's I personally think that that's bullcrap. Like you should be able to manage more with the right technology In the system and creating capacity, and there's ways that that can be done without the property manager Feeling like they're taking on too much.

Speaker 1: 28:36

Like I always say, it's not about taking on more and doing more hours, it's about taking on more and doing less hours. That's, yeah, I'm off the game, and that's what we are all trying to achieve for everyone. And then, yeah, that allows increases in salary as well. So absolutely.

Speaker 2: 28:52

I'm also seeing a bit of a shift to now with technology, but also with what's happening in our Employment industry and recruitment, and because it's so hard to find, you know, talented Staff and everything, because we've lost quite a few over the years. We've got a lot of newbies coming in and that's not a bad thing. I'm definitely all for teaching them and taking on green members and letting you know, educating them and giving them the right entry level Experience and working up from there. But what I'm seeing is a bit more of a shift now away from Portfolio style to more of a pod style, where you do have at least that one more experienced person as the team leader and then the less experienced are in.

Speaker 2: 29:38

As you know, you power a property manager or you're an assistant level, still working as a team, but working in a pod, so that you can then manage three to four hundred, five hundred Doors in that pod and everyone has their tasks that they work on. And Some would argue that pod and task-based management doesn't work because of communication. But if you get the communication right and just have one communicator and usually it would be that team leader it can work really well, and so I'm seeing a bit of a shift now to more of a pod style, embracing technology and embracing the fact that we don't have as many experienced players out there and we're taking them in under our wing in the pod and teaching them from the ground up. So and that excites me I'm all for that.

Speaker 1: 30:23

Yeah, absolutely. So. The thing that I just want people to take away from this is with with the way that property management is evolving, it's really important to make sure that you are connecting with as many different people as possible Other property managers I host the coffee and conversations which are around Australia but also just listening to podcasts like this and reaching out to people in the industry. It's very easy to feel a bit trapped in your office with. That's the way that everyone must do it. Sometimes it's actually not, and the only way you can actually expand your mind with how different offices are working and to open up your mindset as to what is possible is to connect and network with your industry colleagues. So I'm a big, big fan of that.

Speaker 1: 31:16

And then leaving everyone with the two tips for helping the business that you're working in be profitable, and that is being confident, like you mentioned, and knowing your numbers. So know them, write them down, connect with as many people so that gives you more confidence with with approaching your business owner, and if you're approaching them with the intention that you want the business to be profitable, that's all your business owner wants as well. Exactly, work alongside and help them get to that, and you will absolutely be a value you know a very much a valued part of that business by doing that. So I want people to see the benefit of helping as opposed to having that mindset of why should I care? It's not my business, you should care, so you should care.

Speaker 1: 32:11

Anything to add on to that?

Speaker 2: 32:13

I would just probably finish and close by saying I'm a massive believer of collaboration instead of competition.

Speaker 2: 32:20

You know like we will all work together more closely, we can learn so much and share so much with each other.

Speaker 2: 32:26

There's enough business out there for all of us to get rid of that mindset of oh, if I go and have coffee with you, you're going to steal clients from me.

Speaker 2: 32:34

You know like I think we've moved past that, and I would say for any of those that are working, for those directors in sales that are not skilled in property management, instead of going to them with problems, go to them with the solution and help them to understand, see what the real problem is, but that you've identified the problem, but you're coming to them with a solution. Because if you're asking them to identify the solution with their lack of knowledge, they're not going to be able to and you won't get very far in that conversation. You'll feel frustrated, you won't feel valued and then you'll think that the grass is always greener on the other side and you want to job, hop and jump and move and it's just not yet. Do your research, be educated, know what you're talking about and if you don't know, reach out to people like yourself or me or others in the industry that are a wealth of knowledge and can help them to put a business case together to go forward with that solution to the problems.

Speaker 1: 33:30

So and are you working with business owners all over Australia or do you?

Speaker 2: 33:35

work in the area. Yes, so I am. I don't have any clients right now in WA or South Australia, but I do have a client. I have clients in Queensland, new South Wales and Victoria. I would love to jump over and learn a bit more about property management in New Zealand. I'd love to go over there and see what's happening, and I do work in the States as well, so amazing.

Speaker 1: 34:00

And so if anyone is listening to this and feeling that you could be stuck in that situation in your office, reach out to Aaron and have a chat to him about sort of you know the pain point you're having and see how he can help you in that business, and I'm sure you'd be able to give him a little bit of advice on how you could help that business run as well. Not that I get a lot of sales directors listening to these podcasts, but, you know, share it with them as well and see if you can get them to understand you know what we've talked about and see how Aaron can help as well in the business, because it's, at the end of days, yeah, it's just about getting that business to be profitable and sometimes having that little bit of extra support and consulting can go a long way and you'll be doing the business a big favour. So that's Aaron from Pulse Property Management Business Consulting. I'll have your details on this episode, but I'm sure if people Google you they will find you easy enough.

Speaker 2: 35:01

Absolutely, and, like you said in the beginning, you've started to see me more on social media. I am definitely being more vocal and active out there and helping the industry on all of those pages that are available with support, advice and even the landlord groups as well. So amazing.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Well, it's lovely to talk to you today. Super great episode and I'm sure there's a lot of takeaways there for everyone to listen to. Thanks.

Speaker 2: 35:24

Aaron, Thanks so much. Ash. Thanks for having me on.